Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2012

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Okay.

With regard to the separation of salary and expenses, you've said that in point 14.... I mean, this is serious sticker shock in this big huge country, in terms of how much it costs for people to travel to represent their communities at meetings and those kinds of things.

Would you be able to say in a recommendation that “thou shall separate those two”, so that people don't think that's actually what chief and council are taking home?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, I think in terms of providing the best information to the users of the financial statements, it would be a good idea to separate salary from expenses from honoraria.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Ms. Bennett.

We'll turn to Mr. Wilks now, for seven minutes.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today.

I have a few questions, which I'll try to get through here, but take your time on the answers, please.

Is the financial information of entities that are essentially owned by the Government of Canada or a provincial government presented somehow in the financial statements of the governments, and how is that presented?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, according to the Public Sector Accounting Handbook, the business enterprises of a government would be consolidated into the financial statements. It would be consolidated on a modified equity basis, which means that the income would be shown, and the net assets. So it's at a high level of consolidation.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

When you refer to net assets, can you give me some form of definition of that?

[Jerome Berthelette]

That's getting into a level of detail about PSAP that I don't have. I'm a lawyer by training, and what I've learned about accounting, I've learned from my colleagues and through my experience on the study group.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

You made a good choice, being an accountant.

[Ed Holder]

Ouch.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

One of the interesting things we've heard here, and I want to expand upon it a bit, is with regard to the publication of financial information on entities. Let's use, for example, crown corporations that the Government of Canada owns or oversees. Do you believe that the divulgence of that information from the Government of Canada on crown corporations undermines their competitiveness in any way?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, the office is the auditor of a number of crown corporations, and I understand those financial statements are shown on websites of crown corporations.

I'm not sure I can answer the question about the competitiveness of crown corporations. They tend to operate in an area where competition may not exist to the same extent as in the private sector, so I'm not sure the issue of competition really exists.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'll just expound a bit on what Mr. Richards spoke about earlier.

With regard to municipal and regional government in British Columbia, which I'm familiar with, being an elected official for nine years in the municipal and regional government, we had to divulge annually our “wage”, as they call it in British Columbia, and the remuneration of mileage, meals, etc., and travel. Further, that was legislated under the municipal act and the local government act.

On top of that, we also have to divulge any shares we may hold in companies so as to ensure that we don't have a conflict of interest when it comes to executing our duties.

From the perspective of this bill moving forward or what you've dealt with in other crown corporations, do you see this as a potential implication for anything that might move forward with regard to this bill?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I'm not sure, Mr. Chair, what the honourable member means by “implication”.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Well, by divulging what I am involved in, in other companies.... For instance, I must divulge to the federal government that I own a business, and this is the business, and I have x amount of shares in it. I must ensure that I let you know that, because if this ever comes up as a topic of conversation, then I must either excuse myself or allow myself to stay in that conversation as long as it's not pecuniary to me.

Going along those lines with first nations, if a first nations person owns a business outside of mayor and council—you can pick whatever that business is—divulging that as part of an income and/or part of an invested interest, personally, do you see that as an implication with regard to divulging salary remuneration and/or other opportunities of monetary input yearly as a part that would be something that would take away from their ability to do their job?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, I think there are two aspects here that I'd like to address.

Perhaps the first aspect is that within the communities, conflict of interest issues do arise. In the communities that I've had the chance to visit, they're often dealt with much in the same manner as they are dealt with off reserve. There's a disclosure, and the councillor will remove himself or herself from the discussion, and the council will vote on the issue at hand.

So it does happen in the communities. I can't say it happens in every community. I'm not familiar with every community. But the issue of conflict of interest is one that is discussed by first nations, by the chiefs, by councils, and when we visit communities, they're aware of the issue.

This particular act has a particular point to it, Mr. Chair, and it doesn't quite go as far as the member has suggested. I don't think I'm in a position to suggest that it should or it shouldn't go in that direction.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Okay.

Along that line, I think with regard to divulging the information that is set out in this bill and/or any other legislation for a provincial or federal government, it's more so to protect the individual than it is to do anything else. Would you agree with that?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I agree with that statement.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

With regard to this bill...and I know you cannot speak to the bill, but in relation to that, what I'd like to get across is that to ensure that each chief and councillor is protected to the best of their ability, full disclosure is not a bad thing. There comes a point in time where something comes up with a mayor and council, where pecuniary comes up, and you at least have the opportunity to say, “I have a problem here. I need to remove myself.”

If we don't divulge it, that's when we run into problems. Agreed?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, I agree with that statement.

I would just point out that this piece of legislation is very narrow in its scope. It may be that the committee or the government may want at some point to engage the first nations in the discussion of the broader issues related to the accountability framework within first nations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wilks.

We'll now turn to Mr. Genest-Jourdain, for five minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Berthelette. Do you understand French fairly well?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I do speak French. I will try to respond in French.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

In your opening statement, you mentioned the specific context of first nations and the reason for which bookkeeping, that is to say the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants' handbooks, was difficult to apply to the first nations' context.

Could you please tell us about the realities and the context that differ for first nations, and the reason for which it is difficult for these communities to make use of these Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants' handbooks?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I will begin by saying that applying the PSAB would be good for the community, since first nations are also governments. Therefore, the policies or guidelines found in the handbook may be applied to first nations.

Forgive me, I have forgotten the second part of your question.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

You can answer in English if you want. It will be easier that way.

I was just wondering what differences there are with the communities of first nations, and the reason why we can't apply to those the Manuel de comptabilité de l'ICCA pour le secteur public.