Evidence of meeting #48 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer Stoddart  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Patricia Kosseim  General Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, we're going to call this 48th meeting to order, the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Today we continue our review of Bill C-27.

We have the privilege of having two witnesses from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. We have the Privacy Commissioner herself, Jennifer Stoddart. Thank you so much for joining us. Joining her will be Patricia Kosseim. I hope that's somewhere close to the pronunciation of your last name. We do apologize when we get those wrong.

You're no stranger to committees, Ms. Stoddart. We'll begin with your opening statement for approximately ten minutes, and then we'll start our questioning for the next little while. I will turn it over to you.

I must thank you for making your time available to our committee.

3:50 p.m.

Jennifer Stoddart Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for inviting me.

Honourable members of the committee, I am here today to speak to you regarding Bill C-27, an act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of first nations.

As you know, Bill C-27 will require that first nations chiefs and councillors provide an audited schedule of remuneration every year to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. This schedule will underline moneys paid by the first nation, or any entity it controls, to its chief and each of its councillors, acting in either their official or their personal capacity. The bill would require that first nations publish this schedule on their websites and make copies available to anyone upon request. Additionally, the minister would be required to publish this schedule on the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development's website.

While I understand that there are existing reporting arrangements in place for many first nations, C-27 would effectively harmonize all reporting to the department and provide a legislative basis for proactively disclosing this information publicly on the Internet.

Our office's own mandate is the Privacy Act, which applies to federal public sector organizations. While the Privacy Act has been considered quasi-constitutional, some of its provisions may be superseded by other acts of Parliament. For instance, as a general rule, personal information under the control of a government institution cannot be disclosed without the consent of the individual to whom it relates. As the law stands today, specific salaries are considered personal information within the meaning of the Privacy Act, and they cannot be publicly disclosed by the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development without consent. However, the Privacy Act does exceptionally allow for disclosure of personal information without consent where authorized to do so by another act of Parliament. In other words, if the bill before you were to pass, the minister would be allowed to disclose specific salaries for the purposes set out in Bill C-27.

The privacy issue before you is therefore not one of lawfulness, but one of principle. Bill C-27 invokes two equally important democratic principles—accountability and privacy. The question is, how should these two values interplay to minimize adverse impacts and maximize democratic capital for Canadians?

I will now discuss existing salary disclosure regimes.

Transparency and accountability are principles that my office takes very seriously. I have, along with Canada's other federal, provincial and territorial Access to Information and Privacy Commissioners, signed a joint resolution endorsing and promoting open government as a means to enhance transparency and accountability. These are essential features of good governance and critical elements of an effective and robust democracy.

In considering this bill, I note that there is a distinct trend in Canada towards publicly disclosing the salaries of elected officials along with other senior officials paid from the public purse. When money comes from taxpayers, the expectation of transparency increases as the level of responsibility or salary associated with a position increases.

At the federal level, the precise salaries of elected officials such as the Prime Minister, ministers, members of Parliament and other positions are disclosed every year by the Parliament of Canada on its Indemnities, Salaries and Allowances Internet page. Furthermore, pay ranges for public service positions are also made public.

Similarly, in Quebec, the salaries of elected officials are published by the National Assembly. The specific salaries of Quebec's public servants, by contrast, are not disclosed to the public although those of high-ranking officials can be made available through access request.

In Ontario, the specific salaries of elected provincial officials are made publicly available; while only public servants paid $100,000 or more per year have their name, salary and amount of taxable benefits disclosed in yearly reports. Other provinces, including British Columbia and Manitoba, also use salary thresholds as a basis for triggering public disclosure requirements of senior elected officials.

There are no comparable regimes that currently cover all first nations across Canada. Bill C-27 would put in place a uniform standard for publicly disclosing remuneration of elected officials, among other public reporting requirements, in more than 600 first nations. Its impact on the privacy of these officials therefore requires careful analysis and consideration.

In the final part of my presentation I will speak about the appropriate privacy analysis framework.

Along these lines, my office has a long-standing practice of examining the privacy risks posed by a particular initiative by applying a privacy analysis framework, and its elements can be summarized by four key questions: One, is the measure demonstrably necessary to meet a specific need? Two, is it likely to be effective in meeting that need? Three, is the loss of privacy proportional to the need? And four, is there a less privacy-invasive way of achieving the same end?

The first question evaluates whether the proposed measure is required to achieve a particular policy object. In most cases, the answer to this question is positive, and the current case is, at first sight, no exception to the rule. Financial transparency of public moneys paid to elected officials and senior government officials is an important objective that may very well warrant a legislative measure to ensure more uniform reporting requirements than is currently the case and ultimately enhance public accountability and transparency.

The second question considers whether the proposed measure will be successful in achieving the stated policy goal. There may be instances where the proposed measure may not be particularly effective in achieving the objectives for which it was designed. Given the complexity of the native governance architecture, I would respectfully submit to this committee that I may not be the right person to answer this question. In this instance, I would rather defer to the discerning assessments of experts well versed in aboriginal issues.

The third question, which focuses on proportionality, is critical to assessing the privacy impact of a proposed measure. It essentially functions as a sort of balancing test to help determine whether the potentially harmful effects on privacy of individuals is outweighed by the salutary effects of the proposed measures. At this step it is important to identify all the potential privacy implications of the proposed measures, the number of affected individuals, and the extent of the privacy laws. Then one can make a more enlightened determination as to whether or not the public policy benefits of the proposed measure, in this case greater and more uniform public disclosure requirements of first nations, outweigh the adverse privacy impacts on individual chiefs and councillors.

As parliamentarians, you may find that proactive disclosure of exact salaries, in addition to all of the other public reporting requirements, exceeds the incremental benefits this may yield in terms of enhanced public accountability and transparency. On the other hand, if disclosing salaries of elected officials is becoming a widely adopted trend in Canada, as appears to be the case, it may well be considered reasonably in line with public expectations and proportionate to disclose the salaries of chiefs and councillors as well.

The fourth and final step seeks to determine whether the proposed measure can be substituted by another measure that might have a less adverse effect on privacy. This is a time to consider whether there are different options that could yield similar results, but in a less privacy-intrusive way. For instance, disclosing salary ranges or aggregate salary amounts for relevant groups, as opposed to specific salaries of individuals, could prove just as effective in achieving enhanced transparency and accountability without incurring the corresponding loss of individual privacy.

To conclude, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I'd like to thank you again for the opportunity to comment on the importance of these considerations in the proposed legislation. Finding the right balance between achieving stated policy objectives and the protection of privacy can be a complex and difficult undertaking. I hope this analytical framework I have presented is useful to you in your deliberations.

I and my senior general counsel will be happy to try to answer your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Ms. Stoddart. We appreciate that.

We'll begin the questions with my colleague, Ms. Crowder, for the first seven minutes.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Stoddart and Ms. Kosseim, for appearing before the committee today.

I want to refer to a specific statement you made where you said, “financial transparency of public moneys paid to elected officials”.... By “public moneys”, I'm presuming you mean moneys that come from the federal government. When you talk about public moneys, could you be clearer on what you mean by that?

4 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Yes. I believe that's all moneys in the control of elected governments. As we did mention in those examples, it's the federal government as well as the practices of various provincial governments, I think. It means under the control of either one or the other government.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

The reason I'm asking that specific question is because at times chiefs and councils are partly paid out of funding they get from the federal government, but at other times part of the remuneration for chiefs and councils comes from own-source revenue, which may be revenue that's generated potentially by business enterprises. Do we make a distinction then between moneys that come to chiefs and councils from the federal government versus OSR?

4 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Again, I stress that I am not an expert on aboriginal affairs. I have great respect for the amount of knowledge that it takes to speak to these matters.

It would seem to me that if there is a significant amount of revenue coming from businesses or areas that do not receive public money, then a different analysis should apply.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

To date, has the Privacy Commissioner's office undertaken the analysis of different moneys that could be received by first nations?

4:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Okay.

On remuneration, I want to refer to two quotes. I think it's clear that what we've heard from testimony is that certainly first nations are interested in transparency and accountability. I think the devil is always in the details, and I want to refer to two pieces of information.

KPMG wrote a letter on December 2, 2011, where they talked about access to information. They wrote:

It is important to define the appropriate stakeholders for the financial information to be presented under this Bill. General stakeholders are entitled to information concerning public money. Members of the First Nation should have access to full financial information regarding the First Nation. The requirement to make all information public and posting this information on a website extends far beyond the needs of stakeholder groups.

We've heard a number of arguments that there is an accountability chain that people acknowledge. People would argue that the accountability chain is from the first nation to its membership, not from the first nation to a broad general public that may or may not have any interest.

Could you comment on that?

4:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

I understand that perspective. I know there are other perspectives too, and to the extent that perhaps it's not always identical in each case, in each aboriginal nation, how the money is received, there may be room for some distinction depending on the various financial structures of different first nations.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

In that same light, the Chartered Accountants of Canada described first nations as having three primary accountability relationships: to the members, both on and off reserve; to federal departments that provide public funding to first nations; and to capital investors, lenders, and creditors who use the information for decision-making purposes. Again, we haven't heard a lot of argument about that.

In fact, under federal government money, there's already in contribution agreements, grants and contributions, a requirement for first nations to provide information to the department. That's already there and well established.

But they go on to say:

The general public, media and public interest groups were not considered to be in a “direct accountability relationship” with First Nations but were groups that “may also want access to First Nations financial reports.” Bill C-27 would provide a legislative basis for such access by requiring First Nations to post their financial information online and by providing a court remedy to compel this disclosure.

Again, I think there's this statement around accountability and reporting, but the anticipation that any group could request that information....There has been some argument that first nations governments are going to be treated differently than other organizations. For example, private sector businesses have accountability to their shareholders, but they don't have accountability necessarily to the media.

Can you talk a little bit more about that accountability relationship?

4:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

I don't think I can, with great respect, because I'm not a specialist in accounting or public accountability. I don't think I'm the best person to speak to that issue. I can only speak to the issue of personal information and whether or not it is justified, according to the criteria I've laid out for you, that the salaries and the remuneration, which I think includes transportation, reimbursement for expenses, and so on, be posted publicly on first nations websites and on the department's website.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

As well as entities over which first nations have control, which would pay part of that money to chiefs and councils, and these could be commercial enterprises and economic drivers for the community. So those are required as well.

Have you done an analysis of the requirement of those other entities?

4:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

No, we haven't, honourable member.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Have we got time?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

You have one minute.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Are you familiar with the Montana decision?

4:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Slightly, I guess. My general counsel certainly is.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Have you taken a look at the Montana decision in light of these requirements?

4:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Could I refer this question?

October 31st, 2012 / 4:05 p.m.

Patricia Kosseim General Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Yes, we have.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Did you draw any conclusions about the Montana decision with regard to this particular piece of legislation?

4:05 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Patricia Kosseim

In Montana, the whole issue of personal information was raised but discarded by the court, as you remember, because in that instance the salaries were in the aggregate. Although the argument was made that the aggregate amount could be divided per capita, and that therefore you could decipher or determine how much salary each individual was making, the court discarded that because there was no evidence to say that it was the right formula that anybody could reasonably be expected to use.

In that case, the question of personal information didn't arise squarely. Under the new Bill C-27, if it were to come to pass, of course specific salaries would be disclosed, and then the whole issue of whether or not they constitute personal information—which clearly they would in the sense that they would be specific salaries—would be displaced as superseding legislation. In effect, that would trump that exception under the Privacy Act.

We'd be looking at a very different scenario if C-27 were to come to pass, and Montana really didn't help in terms of that inquiry.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you very much.

We will turn to Mrs. Block now for seven minutes.