Evidence of meeting #49 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Amendment G-2 is the next motion in our process.
I point out that if passed, it will have an impact on the admissibility of LIB-6.
Would you like to move it, Mr.Rickford?
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This is a consequential amendment linked to amendment G-1. It amends clause 2 to separate from the definition of “remuneration” the concept of expenses into its own definition. Amendment G-1 also amends the definition of “consolidated financial statements” in order to clarify the definition and removes the definition of “Control — entity”. This amendment is needed to ensure consistency throughout the bill.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
This was what I was asking about in the previous session. I'd like the officials to explain what “including their personal capacity” actually means.
4:40 p.m.
Andrew Francis Director General, Corporate Accounting and Materiel Management, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In terms of their personal capacity, it’s if a number of band councillors work part time for the band and work elsewhere. In terms of their private involvement, if they're an employee of a band-owned business, they would be reporting, given the current wording.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Is that disaggregated data you're asking for in this amendment, or is that also lumped together?
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Accounting and Materiel Management, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The new wording adds some clarity to the definition of remuneration. Remuneration is a clearer term that says money or its equivalent earned from the entity. For instance, in the old wording there could be a misinterpretation: would it apply if the councillor owns his own business or earns other income? How it is linked was not very clear. This new wording says that if there's a band-owned business and he's getting some form of remuneration—so that's any type of compensation—that's what is reported. Does that clarify it for you?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
If he is the engineer for a band-owned business, does it say next to his name what he gets in salary for being a band councillor and separately what he's getting for being the engineer on this bridge-building project?
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Accounting and Materiel Management, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
If it's remuneration from a band-owned business and it's a commercial operation, that individual will have to disclose a remuneration. Remuneration is pretty wide. It's base salary, extra pension—it could be a number of things. They'd have to report any asset they'd derive from a band-owned business with the word “remuneration”.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Accounting and Materiel Management, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In terms of lumped together, it comes back to how the band businesses get consolidated in. Band businesses will get consolidated in at a very high level. Given what they're doing, they have some discretion as to the level where they'd separate the remuneration.
For instance, right now you could state your travel expenses and divide it right out by airline and various travel components. This piece of legislation talks about a general remuneration within the accounting standards. The appropriate level is whatever the material level of reporting or the right detail of reporting is to pass on information. Given the circumstances, it could vary a little bit, depending on what else comes into effect.
I can't say for that individual that it's going to be exactly this piece of remuneration divided out. In other situations, it could be different. For instance, remuneration could just be salary, and they'll lump it in as remuneration. In other spots, there would be a value to separate out perhaps a pension ability if it's quite large relative to.... It's not just the salary, but also the overall compensation given out.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
The concern has been that people don't understand what the difference is between being a council member receiving a salary and having separate remuneration for your job as the mechanical engineer in the band-owned company. Would it be left to people to subtract what it looks like all the other council members are getting compared to this person, who looks like he's getting a lot more, without any explanation of why?
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Accounting and Materiel Management, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Right now, when first nations track their dollars and the aboriginal businesses under that first nation track their dollars, they're reporting it internally already. What this legislation does is make it public. The chiefs and councillors within the governance document.... You may want to talk to the program, but they're already disclosing how much they're making or being paid from the first nation.
In terms of the remuneration from an entity, if they're earning some remuneration from a band-owned business, they'll have to disclose it with this wording.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
In not wanting to disclose the books on band-owned enterprises, in terms of preventing predatory practices from non-band-owned enterprises, this would mean that.... If this person had a particular expertise, that salary would be disclosed.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Accounting and Materiel Management, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
When you talk about the competitiveness of the entity and what's involved and what's being reported, it's a net of the revenue and expenses that gets reported up to the income statement within the financial statement, so there's not much that gets reported up in that way.
In terms of the competitiveness of the skill set of that individual, if they're a councillor, they probably have other levels of involvement with the community that they wouldn't leave simply for a higher salary in a band-owned business. How it would link is a very hard question to answer without a specific example.
Competitiveness in its own right is a difficult discussion to have, because a lot of the industries or companies.... I'll give you an example. We've looked at some of the financial statements that are already publicly disclosed. Some of the businesses are part of a monopoly, whether it's gaming or the tuck shop within an ice rink. Other things are very specific to tourism, so I'd have to hear an exact example to try to talk to it, Mr. Chair.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
It's along the same lines.
When you were testifying, I talked about conflict of interest. My understanding is that those of us in political office will declare if we have a company that we receive remuneration from, or if we sit on a board, or whatever it might be, but I don't think we have to declare the money we get from it. Did you look at how this compares with other elected officials, either municipally, provincially, or federally? Are we asking something different from first nations from what we expect from other elected officials?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Governance Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Actually, we did do some research. If parliamentarians, for instance, have another source of income, it is declared to the Ethics Commissioner and the actual value of that income is also declared to the Ethics Commissioner.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Yes, it's declared to the Ethics Commissioner, but that doesn't show up on our public statement. We have to disclose how many teeth we've got in our mouth to the Ethics Commissioner, but when I get my statement out, there are non-publicly disclosed things in my statement.
Did you look at whether any remuneration that we get from a corporation or board, or whatever it might be, is publicly disclosed? I don't think it is. I think the fact that we get it is disclosed, but not the amount. I know when I was a municipal councillor, I didn't have to disclose the remuneration I got from my other job, because it was a part-time position. I had to disclose any conflict of interest, but not the actual dollar value.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Well, it's a band-owned entity, right? This has been driven by the fact that it's supposedly a conflict of interest clause, and in terms of public disclosure, is an apples and oranges thing happening here?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Governance Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I would say that it's not so much a conflict of interest issue, but rather it's for first nations members and Canadians at large to understand the dynamic in the community about where salary is derived for elected officials.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Help me understand this. This is where my struggle is.
Let's say the band has a successful band-owned entity. It's a successful corporate entity, and I'm employed by that corporate entity as well as being a band councillor. Because they've been competitive and have a successful business, I don't know why how much I get paid matters. It's important around conflict of interest because I should recuse myself if the band is making any decisions concerning that entity, but I'm not sure why the amount of money I get paid is relevant. I think we're held to a different standard here.