Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 5th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

It is so moved, and unfortunately, we may not see.... It may be less predictable, because I have a ruling on this particular motion.

Bill C-27 enhances the financial accountability and transparency of first nations. This amendment proposes to restrict public access to certain disclosures to members of the first nations only.

As the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition, states on page 766:

An amendment to a bill that was referred to committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and the principle of the bill.

In the opinion of the chair, the creation of a restriction to the act is contrary to the public principle of the Bill C-27; therefore, it is inadmissible.

Amendment NDP-13 is the next that we'll consider.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I move that Bill C-27, in clause 8, be amended by deleting lines 14 to 16 on page 4.

This particular section of the bill refers to documents that must remain accessible to the public, on an Internet site, for at least 10 years. That seems an unreasonable length of time. The last time I checked, Canada Revenue Agency goes back only seven years, so I'm not sure why we would ask first nations to go back 10 years on this.

It seems like an unreasonable request, so I would recommend that we delete that section of the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'll just note for colleagues that because amendments NDP-13 and LIB-14 are almost identical, if NDP-13 fails or passes, we will consider LIB-14 dealt with.

Mr. Rickford, go ahead.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With respect, a minimum timeframe is required to ensure the documents are easily accessible over a period of time and to ensure that the documents are not posted for an overly brief period to technically comply with the legislation.

To the member's point, the 10-year period is consistent with the standard recognized in most jurisdictions, and by our department, for the retention of financial documents.

For those reasons, we will be unable to support her motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Seeing no additional speakers, we will now vote on amendment NDP-13.

(Amendment negatived)

Therefore, amendment LIB-14 is also disposed of.

We'll look to amendment LIB-15.

Ms. Bennett, go ahead.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

This amendment narrows it such that nations are allowed to mail or drop off the documents rather than create and maintain a website.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Rickford, go ahead.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With respect, the purpose of the bill is to provide for the public disclosure of audited consolidated financial statements and the schedule of remuneration and expenses. This brings the public disclosure requirements of first nation governments in line with other governments in Canada. This motion would effectively make it optional for first nations to make these documents available to the public, thereby not achieving the bill's purpose.

For those reasons, we'll be unable to support that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Hughes, go ahead.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I want to add my support for this amendment, with respect to the fact that not all first nations have access to resources in the same way that the rest of the governments across Canada do, and the Government of Canada.

I would support this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Crowder, go ahead.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Access to Internet resources is very uneven, particularly in rural and remote communities and actually not in such rural and remote communities.

My riding of Nanaimo—Cowichan on Vancouver Island is not remote, although there are rural aspects of it. If you're a kilometre off the highway, you don't have access to high-speed Internet, and we're only an hour north of Victoria.

It's crazy to think that everybody is going to have access to Internet. Band members can't afford computers in many cases, and since the CAP program has been cancelled, they aren't even able to go into public libraries to access the Internet there.

It's an unreasonable request, so I fully support Ms. Bennett’s amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Seeing nobody else seeking to speak to amendment LIB-15, we'll move to a vote.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 8 agreed to)

(On clause 9—Internet site — Minister)

We are on clause 9 and amendment LIB-16.

Go ahead, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

We are suggesting that it require permission of the first nation for the minister or ministry to publish, as is now done through their contribution agreement. It just seems respectful that the department not get to put anything up on the website without the permission of the first nation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mrs. Bennett.

I should point out to colleagues that if amendment LIB-16 carries, then LIB-17 will not be admissible, because it would be in line conflict.

Is there anybody who wants to speak to amendment LIB-16?

Ms. Hughes, go ahead.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I just want to get some clarification, maybe from the department.

If a first nation doesn't have the resources to put this up on a website because they don't have a website, will the Government of Canada put it up on their website?

[An hon. member]

Yes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Amendment LIB-17 now can be moved, because amendment LIB-16 was defeated.

Go ahead, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I think it's linked with the defeated one, but we're just saying again that we would replace it with the “Internet site of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada without delay after”, with permission.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Ms. Bennett.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 9 agreed to)

Looking to clause 10—

Pardon me.

Do you have a comment, Ms. Crowder?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I'm sorry. It's a minor thing about clause 9, which just carried. It says, “The Minister must publish the documents referred to...on the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development's Internet site...”.

Should it not say the new name?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

This may be a question to the department. My understanding is—

[Karl Jacques]

The legal name is still Indian Affairs.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Oh, okay.