Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2011

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

First of all, I want to thank all of you for coming. It's highly important that we hear your testimony.

I want to say, Chief Louie, I was in Westbank this summer. I attended a wedding. I was totally amazed at the development—the hotels, the restaurants, and of course, as you mentioned, the banks, and one of my favourite places, Timmy's. I just wanted to tell you that it was amazing to see all the development there. I congratulate you and your folks for that.

I understand, as you mentioned earlier, that the minister attended your AGM yesterday. You, the minister, and Chief Bear, as a representative of the Land Advisory Board, signed a new funding formula. As I understood you to say earlier in your opening remarks, this agreement did take some time, but it does seem to be a major milestone of the FNLMA. With that in mind, I understand that the minister also talked with you, Chief Louie, about the new entrants to the first nations land management regime and said that some of those would be announced by the end of this calendar year.

Given this new and significant milestone, can you please tell this committee what opportunities you see and what you expect going forward from this agreement?

[Chief Robert Louie]

Thank you very much for your question. First, I appreciate your comment about Westbank. We're very proud of that in my community, very proud, and we look forward to lots of development in communities across this country.

What we see with the memorandum of understanding that we signed yesterday is more certainty. It took us ten years to get there. We've always been uncertain. Usually the norm is to look at five-year agreements. We've been operating year to year to year. This, as I'm sure you fully appreciate, is so much needed. It's a success that exists in this country. I know it's recognized. I know we have the support of the minister and of the government, but what's needed is that we can double, we can triple, we can quadruple the success if there were even more opportunities.

I believe that the end result would be an investment, an opportunity for the government, for Canada, to invest in what we're doing, because the returns on investment far outweigh any dollars that might be supported. This agreement now gives us at least for the next four years, starting April 1, some comfort to know that at least our operational first nations are going to be supported, and I'm looking forward to the minister's announcement. He indicated yesterday that he's hoping to make that by early December. If I understand it correctly, about 13 first nations will be supported.

It's a start, it's a good start, but the need is so much greater.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I can appreciate that. I understand, of course, that some of those key elements will be certainly to foster the business climate on the reserves. That's very positive for everybody, I believe, right across the country.

From what we see, it appears that the interest--and it was talked about earlier--in participating in this FNLMA is growing. Certainly there are likely to be some first nations who will not be able to achieve that, perhaps through some lack of abilities. Would you agree that though not all first nations may be able to seize these potential opportunities, some may be more ready than others to be first new potential entrants?

[Chief Robert Louie]

Yes, definitely. There are those that are even willing to fund it themselves. Let me give you the one example I know personally. The Buffalo Point First Nation in the southeastern part of Manitoba has made it very clear, their community has made it very clear, that they want the authority recognized. They've even gone so far as to say to the government, “We will even fund ourselves in the developmental phase, just give us the opportunity to pass our land codes.” They have it ready but haven't got the support yet. It's something that certainly I get questioned on. That's simply an example of one community. The need across Canada is great, and that's only one example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You've got only 30 seconds, if you had a short question, but otherwise we do have questioners that will take that time.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I got my questions in, so thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Sure, thank you.

Mr. Bevington for five minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the delegates. I had an opportunity to be briefed by you this morning, and that was great.

Of course I support wholeheartedly what you're trying to accomplish through this process. The process itself seems to me to be.... We've had 31 operational communities in 15 years. Is that right?

[Chief Robert Louie]

Well, actually 36 have passed land codes to date, and there are several that are going to be voting. Musqueam, for example, is scheduled in December.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

When it started, was there a sudden interest in it? Did you ramp up pretty quickly and then, through these capacity issues, did it kind of slow down then? Have you seen a steady progress? How would you describe the movement toward this, so we can understand better how it's working?

[Chief Robert Louie]

I'd love to go into the history of this. All I can say is it started as an opportunity that arose as a result of a court case, litigation between the Westbank First Nation--my community--and Canada over the revocation of land management authorities under the Indian Act. It then went into the realm of lands, revenues, and trust.

The department was looking at ways of dealing with land management matters, and an opportunity was provided to me and to the first nations. It spread to the nine first nations in Canada who operated under sections 53 and 60. Those are delegated authorities--delegated--and I use that word in that sense, not full law-making, but it was the furthest we could go under the Indian Act at that time. Then it spread to 14 first nations that became signatories. They agreed across Canada that this is so important that we need our inherent rights to manage our lands recognized. It spread from there. It has been a success story and is being built upon by communities across the country.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

You have 600 communities across the country that eventually will have the opportunity to do this. Within the lifetime of many of the people in those communities, how can we accelerate the pace so they have an opportunity to participate in this?

[Chief Robert Louie]

If the government agreed as a signatory with us to add further financial support and to allow us to give the opportunity to first nations on the waiting list, that is very much the essence of what's needed. I realize we are in tough times. I realize there are costs and analyses of those costs. All I can say is that by putting more dollars to this initiative, the opportunities that can be provided and the generation of income and jobs, the return on investment would be far more significant than what it might cost the government today to allow us to do that.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

We have 80 on the list. With the slow pace of the dollars that have been involved, many communities must recognize that if they go on this list they're going to be on it a long time. Is that impeding the onward movement right now?

[Chief Robert Louie]

A simple answer is yes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Okay, so we see this as the need to break down the bottleneck.

[Chief Robert Louie]

Yes, we do.

[Vice-Chief Jody Wilson-Raybould]

Just to build on what Chief Louie said and to build on your question in terms of what you as parliamentarians can do with respect to this initiative, it's exactly what Chief Louie said. More broadly, land management and jurisdictional authority over what happens on reserve land is one aspect of overall governance that our communities want to undertake in moving from the Indian Act to full self-determination. Our communities across the country are on various parts of the continuum and want to rebuild our nations.

Fundamental to the land management initiative is that it supports individual communities rebuilding however they want based upon their own priorities and moving down that continuum of governance and governance reform. I think it's a fair statement to say that across the country among the 633 first nations communities, at least one-third of them are engaged in some form of governance reform. That number in British Columbia, where we're from, goes up to two-thirds of our first nations.

We look at governance and nation-building in terms of a holistic perspective, in that everything we're doing is interconnected, whether it be in land management, education, or water. The reality, in terms of legislation that's being introduced this session and that is going to be introduced, is it deals with various aspects of governance in an isolated way, whether it's water, matrimonial rights and interests, the crime bill, or land management. Fundamentally, all have to do with the rebuilding of first nations governments, decolonizing as first nations. But we're looking to parliamentarians to support our efforts in terms of how we want to move down that continuum, then backing away and providing the opportunity for our communities to engage, where they want to, in the priorities they have. As Chief Louie says, make that concrete, real investment, because it will be returned tenfold plus in terms of our communities being self-sustaining and contributing to the economy as we are.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Wilks, you have five minutes.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for coming today. Welcome from my constituency of Kootenay—Columbia, which is pretty close to the Westbank. I look forward to hearing what you have to say here today.

I lived in Penticton from 1991 to 1995, so I saw the progression of the Westbank lands, and I am certainly impressed.

Some of the first nations, such as yours, have moved out of the first nations land management and on to more comprehensive self-government arrangements. My question is, do you see the first nations land management regime as a stepping stone to full self-government, or do you anticipate that some first nations will operate under first nations land management for many years to come?

[Chief Robert Louie]

I appreciate your question, Mr. Wilks. Thank you very much.

It is a stepping stone. The advantage of going through this incremental form of self-government with land management provides the first nation with the opportunity to get its feet wet, so to speak, to say that it now has the experience.

I can speak to my own community, as an example. We entered into a land code in 2003. Our self-government legislation was passed in 2005, and we had the opportunity prior to that, from about 1979. to work under the Indian Act and to learn the management of it, and we had the experience develop. In many communities across this country the ideal situation would be to take it step by step, for obvious reasons—to get the experience, the understanding; then everything starts to flow.

But that doesn't necessarily have to be the requirement. We've seen communities that may not have had things such as past experience in handling lands go directly into land management. What is needed, though, is some support. Capacity-building and training and that sort of thing are vital components. This is something that has been put forward, but it hasn't been fully supported. The experience you'll gain over time, the enhanced operations of land management, and the expertise can be further developed if you have the training and that support.

So there is a mixed way of looking at it. This is what we term an incremental step toward self-government. In my opinion it is the most important step, because you're dealing with management over lands and resources. To me, other than the members themselves, the most important area is the management of lands and resources. It's the furthest step that any community can take towards self-governance, and this is the opportunity that's provided here.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

You used the word “incremental”. Could you expound upon that a little more? I understand there are a number of steps, but for those of us who are new to the committee, could you expound upon the steps that you foresee in the future as being very important? I hear you on the first part.

[Chief Robert Louie]

Thank you very much.

Maybe I can use terms in this sense. Under the Indian Act you have a “delegated authority” opportunity, and “delegated” very simply means that the decision-maker is not the first nation community but the government. It's the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development: it's whoever is at the regional director level in the province, whoever is the deputy minister who sits here in Ottawa, or the Indian agents who have sometimes been referred to over the past history. That's one form of authority. It goes so far.

But what we're talking about as an incremental step of self-government is that about 25% of the Indian Act pertaining to lands is pulled out of the Indian Act, and that jurisdiction now rests with the first nations community, which passes a land code. That's an incremental step because the first nation that passes a land code then has the opportunity to be decision makers. They become lawmakers. It's like the Government of Canada: you pass laws and you have your first, second, and third readings. It has those sorts of powers; it's governmental decision powers.

That's why it is important that first nations economic ventures have sustainability, to look to the future. There have been all kinds of studies done worldwide that prove the point that a first nation needs to have that jurisdiction. The jurisdiction implied in this land management process, the incremental step towards self-government, is a beginning.

The next steps beyond this incremental step are what we have at Westbank; that is, authorities over the other areas that we have. Treaty-making includes these other areas. But the most important by far, in my opinion and my experience, is the control over lands and resources.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much, Chief Louie.

Mr. Rafferty, you have five minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today, and also audience members.

My questions deal with relationships. Any or all of you are welcome to answer. I would like to hear from those of you we've not heard from yet, just so that it can be a little exciting here today.

First, I'm looking at the condensed statement of financial activities. I see that under expenditures, spending on inter-governmental relations in the last fiscal year was cut in half from the year before. Does this mean that your relationships with governments are 50% better than they were?