Evidence of meeting #70 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Perry Bellegarde  Chief, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations
Paul Chartrand  Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

This is the 70th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Today we are continuing our study of Bill C-428. We have two witnesses with us today, one via video conference and the other, Mr. Chartrand, who is of course here in the room.

We'll begin with Chief Perry Bellegarde. Thanks so much for being here. We appreciate your willingness to join us and certainly your time. We'll turn it over to you to begin with. We'll hear your opening statement and then hear the opening statement by Mr. Chartrand in the room. Then we'll begin with questions.

April 30th, 2013 / 8:50 a.m.

Chief Perry Bellegarde Chief, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. Today I'm appearing by video conference as the Chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, as the Saskatchewan regional chief of the Assembly of First Nations, for which I carry the national portfolio for treaties. I want to thank you and the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for accommodating my request to provide evidence.

Our federation here in Saskatchewan represents 74 first nations. I always take the time to acknowledge the Denesuline; the Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota tribes; the Swampy Cree, the Woodland Cree, and the Plains Cree; and Anishinabek and the Saulteaux Nakawe nations. Our federation is committed to honouring the spirit and intent of treaty as well as the promotion, protection, and implementation of the treaty promises made more than a century ago.

While I'm currently chief of the FSIN and Saskatchewan regional chief for the Assembly of First Nations, I was also raised on the Little Black Bear First Nation in the Treaty 4 territory, a treaty territory that spans southern Saskatchewan, southwestern Manitoba, and a small piece of southern Alberta, of approximately 75,000 square miles. I have been an elected leader at all levels of first nations organizations, from FSIN chief to the AFN regional chief, tribal council representative, assistant tribal council representative, as well as being the chief and councillor of the Little Black Bear First Nation.

At the same time it has been my honour to have learned from more than 60 traditional knowledge keepers and elders, both men and women, from throughout the treaty nations of Saskatchewan and other parts of what we now call Canada. Those elders and knowledge keepers taught me about the spirit and intent of treaty.

Full respect and implementation of aboriginal treaty rights by governments and Canada is essential in order to alter the daily-lived experience of our people who reside on reserves and in the urban centres of Canada.The urgent need for Canada to demonstrate genuine respect and long-term commitment in keeping with the 2012 crown-first nations gathering and the 2013 meeting between the Prime Minister and first nations leaders remains.

Full honour and implementation of our treaties is crucial to the evolution of Canada and the principle of federalism. Cooperation and harmony within the Canadian federation is not generated by closing off discussion on significant undertakings, such as by unilaterally amending the Indian Act. Cooperative and harmonious relationships cannot be achieved by devaluing treaties or by unilateral government actions. What's needed is a comprehensive process supported and committed to by government with full and inclusive partnerships between first nations and government.

We all agree that we want to move beyond the Indian Act and the colonialistic controls of the Indian Act; there's no question about that. The important thing to keep in mind is the process that we use to get outside of the Indian Act. That process must be driven by first nations people, not a private member's bill. The process must have the full political and financial support of the government over the long term, a process that builds upon the Prime Minister's commitment from the 2012 crown-first nations gathering and from the January 11, 2013 meeting. The process of creating a private member's bill does not include adequate resources for consultation and accommodation by first nations people.

If the government were serious about amending the Indian Act, it would not be done through a private member's bill. It would ensure that were enough resources for extensive consultation with first nations people, both on and off reserve. This process is not respectful. This is not in keeping with the duty to consult and accommodate and does not reflect the honour of the crown, nor does it respect the principle and practice of free, prior, and informed consent as reinforced in the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which the Government of Canada endorsed in 2010.

Our treaties are international in nature, and I always say that treaties trump policy. Policy does not trump treaties. In 1876 we were given an Indian Act. It was not a treaty implementation act, it was an Indian Act. At issue here is that there is nothing in place to give legal effect to those sacred treaties that we have, which we entered into with the crown, nation to nation.

As indigenous peoples, a lot of us have even become so colonialized as to think that our rights come from the Indian Act, to the extent that some of us still call our Indian status cards treaty cards.

Given the Prime Minister's commitment on January 11 to a high-level mechanism and a process to look at treaty implementation, we felt there was an opportunity to move beyond the Indian Act towards a treaty implementation act, to give legal effect to our international treaties, and to implement section 35, which recognizes and affirms treaty rights in Canada's own constitution.

As indigenous peoples, we have the inherent right to self-determination with the ability to enter into treaty relationships with the crown and with other indigenous nations. We exercise that right, and because we shared the land and resources with the newcomers to Turtle Island, we now also have treaty rights. Under that inherent right to self-determination, we have the ability to create our own laws under our own jurisdiction. We don't need bylaws under the Indian Act. All we need are our own laws to be respected and recognized.

The question I have for this committee is this. If this Indian Act is done away with tomorrow morning, would that mean that we've done away with our inherent rights? Does that mean we've done away with our treaty rights? Does that mean the federal fiduciary or crown trust obligation is gone? The answer is no, of course not. We will always have our inherent and treaty rights. They come from a sacred covenant with the Creator and they will be there as long as the sun shines, the rivers flow, and the grass grows. My point is that we are indigenous peoples. We have our own land, own laws, our own customs, traditions, languages, and are our own identifiable people with our own identifiable form of government. Because we are indigenous peoples, we have the ability to exercise an inherent right to self-determination based upon our jurisdiction. Because of that, our chiefs entered into that treaty relationship with the crown. They exercised that inherent right and made that international treaty. Unfortunately, a treaty implementation act did not follow.

The Indian Act was put in place in 1876. The private member's bill is not the way out of the Indian Act. The private member's bill will not facilitate a treaty implementation act. This does nothing for Canada to implement its own constitution. Again, we all agree with getting out of the Indian Act, but it's the process. What I'm here to talk about is the adequate process, one that honours the duty to consult and accommodate by the crown. If that's not in place, we can't support any of this.

I think you should scrap the bill and start over. If your objective was to start a dialogue, Rob, you've done a great job of that. I commend you for that. Your objective has been met. This is a dialogue that is not fully supported by government. I believe that if it were, there would be a meaningful consultation process involved that would have ensured a fully financed, long-term, sustainable process for treaty implementation, fully supported by cabinet and the Prime Minister's Office.

That's my formal statement right now, honourable committee. I look forward to some questions later on.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Chief.

We'll now turn to Mr. Chartrand. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate your willingness to join us. We'll turn it over to you for the next little bit for your opening statement.

9 a.m.

Paul Chartrand Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will begin by offering my greetings to the committee. Thank you for inviting me to appear.

Briefly, by way of introduction, I am a retired professor of law, which I taught for a few decades, mostly in Canada and Australia. I've focused on law and policy relating to indigenous peoples.

Because of some of the comments that were made, I should also add that I was one of the commissioners appointed by Prime Minister Mulroney to Canada's Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in 1996, among other appointments.

I'm here today to make my own professional observations about Bill C-428, not as a representative of anyone. My approach is to make some recommendations based on what I view as good law and good policy based on principles of democracy and constitutional values in Canada.

I offer the following.

The preamble of Bill C-428 characterizes the act as an outdated colonial statute. Is amendment the best way to deal with that? The royal commission's final report in 1996 made some alternative suggestions with regard to amending the Indian Act, but no government since then has undertaken those alternative means, which would by and large involve a negotiation of treaties.

Let me say by way of opening comment that some take the view that amendments to the act involve an attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ears, as it were. Given the politically contentious nature of any amendments to the Indian Act, one might add to the image by suggesting the knitting of a silk purse is to take place while tiptoeing through a minefield.

The Indian Act is, indeed, an archaic law that has been imposed upon Indians since 1876, for the purpose of having Ottawa bureaucrats and politicians run the affairs of Indians on reserves. It must be done away with, one way or another. But in Canada you cannot change the state of affairs under which people have been administered for many generations in accordance with the idea that motivated the Indian Act in the first place; that is, that those Ottawa people know better than Indians how to run their own affairs at home. The Indian Act also involves treaty rights because of section 88, which deals with the application of provincial laws and its treaty exemptions.

Clause 2 of the bill, of course, requires that a minister report annually to this committee. My first recommendation is a policy that no amendment to the act is to be proposed or introduced in Parliament without first conducting proper consultations with first nations representatives, and that all bills be drafted in consultation with them.

This approach would tend to promote the democratic principle that laws ought not to be passed without the agreement of those who are to bear the burdens or reap the benefits of the legislation. This approach would at least partly remedy the lack of equitable representation and participation of first nations in Canada's Parliament and government.

My second point is this. Amendments increase the complexity of the law applicable to Indians and lands reserved for the Indians. An annotated publication of the act runs well over 400 pages. Amendments are being made all the time, under various bills, some with obscure titles such as budget implementation acts, and other omnibus bills. These types of bills, which by the way do nothing to promote democratic consideration of proposed legislation, increase the complexity.

There are costs of all kinds worked against first nation interests in such a situation. I note in this regard, that Bill C-45, the recent omnibus bill, also provided for an amendment to the act. That amendment called for the involvement of the minister in the administration of Indian Affairs on a reserve. The interested reader of Bill C-428 will not see that particular amendment.

I will refer to the title of the act. I mentioned that it is a good feature of this piece of legislation that it appropriately identifies the contents of the bill. That's unlike legislation that has recently been passed whose titles obscure the contents of the legislation rather than reveal it. The most egregious example I can think of was known as Bill C-3, which was entitled the gender equity in Indian registration act. That became law in January of 2001. The content of that bill was to deal with the right of individuals to equality before and under the law without discrimination on the basis of sex, as provided in section 15 of the charter. There's no such thing as gender equity in the Constitution.

I will turn now to consider the objectives of the act. What is the mischief to be remedied by the proposed amendments in Bill C-428? The first or preambular statement asserts implicitly that Canada's first nations ought not to be “subjected to differential treatment”. This offends the constitutional recognition and affirmation of the distinct collective rights of Indians as aboriginal peoples who are entitled to differential treatment. Differential treatment is demanded by the law of the Constitution. The easily misunderstood concept of equality of citizenship rights, to which all first nations or Indian persons are entitled, is easily confused, in the public mind and in this preambular statement, with the constitutionally mandated treaty and aboriginal rights, which are collective in nature and demand differential treatment.

My recommendation is that a new, substantive, and not a preambular provision be inserted in the bill that clearly identifies the purposes or objectives of the act. This would go a long way toward assisting in judicial or other interpretation of the legislation. I note that section 3 of the Indian Act—and this is an important provision of the Act—reads that “This Act shall be administered by the Minister, who shall be the superintendent general of Indian Affairs”. Without removing or altering that provision, there might be some difficulties interpreting any sort of an amendment that proposes to do things pursuant to the objectives identified in the preamble.

I'll go now to mention the repeal of sections 32 and 33, which have to do with the outlawing of free trade. If you're not familiar with the history of this provision, I would respectfully urge the members of the committee to look at that, which as I understand began in Manitoba. The Dakota farmers were outdoing the local farmers in the Brandon area and they didn't like that. They contacted their friends in Ottawa and had free trade of agricultural products from the reserve outlawed by these particular provisions.

I would cite the literature of Professor Sarah Carter, who has written a book and some articles that would provide you with an excellent historical background of the way in which this has come about. You will know, honourable members, that section 32 has not been enforced for quite a long time. An order in council from 2010 has exempted all bands on the prairies from this operation. This was a prairie provision.

My modest suggestion in regard to the repeal of these provisions is that you can't dispute that the operation of these provisions would have worked to the economic disadvantage to prairie Indian farmers. The act has contributed to a legacy of poverty and marginalization that forms part of a national mythology of racist assumptions about Indians.

Is it good enough to shut the door on this bad legacy? I suggest that when we shut that door we open another door. The repeal of these provisions is an invitation to you, to the federal government, to set up remedial programs to boost Indian agriculture to make amends. Experts in the field would be able to advise you on the details of such programs, but certainly, you will agree that the objective is one that's recommended by a genuine sense of doing the right thing today.

I refer now to the wills and estates provision, which is clause 7 of the bill and which proposes the repeal of sections 42 to 47 of the Indian Act.

By the way, I suggest that some cleaning-up of the drafting be done. The drafting, in respect to clauses 5 and 7, could be done a lot better rather than throwing headings and substantive provisions all in one basket and saying we're repealing all of that. It's better to clean it up and say, “We repeal the heading, we repeal section 32, we repeal section 33”, rather than saying “The heading and blah, blah, blah...”, which can be confusing. We don't need to add unnecessarily to the complexity, and so a little better drafting can help.

The core issue in respect to the proposed repeal of these sections, which have to do with Indian wills and estates, has been considered by the Supreme Court of Canada. Again, the case of Canard from the Sagkeeng First Nation in Manitoba in 1976 is a leading authority in this area. With the repeal of these provisions at first blush, it appears that the wills of Indians resident on reserves would now be governed by provincial laws of general application rather than federal laws under the Indian Act. This is the result of the constitutional division of powers as well as the operation of section 88 of the Indian Act.

It would seem at first blush that this type of wills and succession legislation necessarily involves family relations and, therefore, the traditional values of first nations, their customs and practices. If wills and succession legislation, which also by the way affects interests in reserve lands, is part of first nation law, say Cree family law, then there's an important implication of the repeal of sections 42 to 47.

The question is whether these provincial laws of general application to Indian reserve residents apply, and if so, if they are constitutionally valid, notwithstanding the potential infringement of the treaty or aboriginal rights of the Cree people. I note, by the way, that the current government has also introduced other legislation dealing with family homes, and matrimonial interests and rights on reserve, and the same question appears there. So one has to be very careful when scrutinizing the implications of this sort of legislation, otherwise you're inviting litigation, or challenging it for its constitutional validity.

I mention, for the benefit of the members of the committee, that Cree law, and Cree family law in particular, has long been recognized as good law in Canada, I cite the Connolly and Woolrich case of 1867, which is a reported decision.

In regard to the comments I'm making, I note also that the modern treaties being negotiated with first nations include provisions recognizing the authority of these first nations to make laws in respect to particular aspects of family law. For example, the Maa-nulth Treaty of 2007 includes the power to make laws respecting adoption, child custody, child care, social development, and solemnization of marriages of Maa-nulth citizens.

Clause 6 proposes an amendment to current section 36 regarding special reserves and reserve lands. This is a very difficult topic, both as a matter of statutory interpretation and constitutional analysis and as a political issue. It is not all that easy to discern the objective of this particular provision. Again, it would be helpful if you had, as I suggested, some provision to better identify the objective of the legislation.

As I understand the text of the proposed amendment, it would have a prospective effect of only retaining the status of reserved lands that are now in the category of special reserves. By necessary implication, all reserve lands created in the future would have to be lands to which a legal title were held by the federal or provincial government.

The implications of that have to be examined very carefully, I think, given the difficulties of ascertaining the law applicable to Indian reserve lands. I cite in particular a proposal that has been floated around for a few years. I don't believe this has been put in the form of a bill yet. It's been called under various names, including the first nations property ownership act. I've concluded in my work that what has been proposed, at least so far as I've gathered from reading a book by some people who are not lawyers, that the objective of creating fee simple on-reserve land is constitutionally impossible. In fact, that may be one of the reasons why the bill hasn't surfaced yet.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Mr. Chartrand—

9:15 a.m.

Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

Paul Chartrand

One has to be very careful with these amendments.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

I apologize.

I hate to jump in but we're significantly over the allotted time. We'd like to give you a few minutes to conclude, if you'd like.

9:15 a.m.

Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

Paul Chartrand

Thank you.

I'll have a look to see which are, perhaps, the most significant points.

Some cleaning up needs to be done with respect to the proposal regarding intoxicants. There's an ambiguity as to the continuing authority of a chief and council to make laws with respect to intoxicants. That should be looked at.

The proposal that by-laws made by a band come into effect upon publication has to be looked at very, very carefully. The minister continues to have the authority as an administrator of affairs on reserve. Cabinet continues to have authority to make regulations, as does the minister. How are you going to reconcile the two? If by-laws come into force upon publication, and the minister subsequently wishes to exercise his discretionary authority to not approve them, how is that to be done? I would propose that a whole catalogue of new regulations be created prior to the coming into force of the legislation. This really needs to be thought through, it seems to me. Maybe it has been thought through, but there's nothing available to me from the government to indicate how these two apparently irreconcilable things would happen.

Mr. Chair, that wraps up my respectful submission.

Thank you very much.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you so much. We appreciate the content of your presentation.

We'll turn to you, Ms. Crowder, to begin the first seven minutes.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Chief Bellegarde and Mr. Chartrand for coming before us today and providing some very good testimony.

Part of what we've been hearing fairly consistently from witnesses is that changes to the Indian Act hinge on the duty to consult and accommodate. Most witnesses we've heard—there have been a few who have not said this—have said that you cannot make changes to the Indian Act without fulfilling that duty to consult and accommodate.

We had a witness who came before us last Thursday who said that in his view what needed to happen—it was Wab Kinew—was that in consultation and in full collaboration with first nations a process needed to be set out that identified timeframes, resources, and terms of reference and that those terms of reference must be developed in conjunction with first nations before you can move ahead on any changes.

Chief Bellegarde, would you comment on that? Then, perhaps, Mr. Chartrand would comment on that as well.

9:20 a.m.

Chief, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations

Chief Perry Bellegarde

No. I totally agree with that. Any time you're going to change any legislation or laws that affect indigenous peoples, that duty to consult and accommodate, that process, must be fully supported. Anything that's going to be effective has to be jointly done or done in concert. The terms of reference have to be jointly developed right up front and adequately resourced, and we need to make sure that all indigenous peoples, both on and off reserve, have a chance for dialogue and input. This is going to affect them for the rest of their lives and the lives of their children and grandchildren. I totally support any process that is respectful and meaningful, that ensures that those principles of consultation and accommodation are met.

There's also the question about what the threshold is. What is adequate consultation, to say that yes, the crown's obligation has been met? That threshold level is going to be key. I reiterate that we all want to get out of the Indian Act, but it's a process that has to meaningfully set up jointly with our driving the bus, if you will, in concert together, to bring about that change. I support that move towards anything that facilitates that.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Before I go to Professor Chartrand, I would point out that he and others have pointed out that the Indian Act was unilaterally imposed, and it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to unilaterally impose changes to the Indian Act—

9:20 a.m.

Chief, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

—because it will have unforeseen consequences.

Mr. Chartrand.

9:20 a.m.

Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

Paul Chartrand

Thank you.

This is an extremely interesting subject, and I'll say yea on one side and nay on the other. It's my professional opinion that should the matter be litigated, the courts would not conclude there was a duty to consult in respect to the proposed legislation. I emphasize the structure of government that we have in this country. There are three different branches of government, as you know, and there's good reason to keep them separate. There's a tension, particularly since the charter, between the elected representatives on the one hand and the judicial appointees on the other hand about who is the last, as it were. For quite some time now, this has been an ongoing tension.

I note that one of the considerations would be that the way the court is developing this concept right now of course is that the duty arises when the government contemplates any action. The question is whether it is legislative action. When there's a government contemplating legislative action, you don't know if the legislation will pass until it passes. It's very difficult. I'm not at all confident that the court was so decided. My understanding of the current case law is that there are two decisions on it. They're only at the court of appeal level in two provinces. One says yes, and one says no. It's an open question in law. I've offered you my opinion.

That does not mean, however, that I don't believe there are good reasons for doing the kinds of consultations that Chief Bellegarde is proposing. I agree. Certainly, as I've suggested in my own comments, the government ought to adopt a policy to never amend the act without proper consultations and to do it along with first nations, because there are democratic principles that are cited. Governments are exhorted to do this, among other things, by some of the emerging human rights of indigenous people, such as we find in the preambular and substantive provisions of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, by way of example.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you.

I still have time?

I just want to touch on the wills and estates. The reason I'm bringing this up, on this side, is that we believe that the act shouldn't proceed. However, just do the math and recognize that if the Conservatives support it, the bill will pass.

With regard to the section on wills and estates, the Canadian Bar Association did a thorough analysis of the wills and estates clause of the bill. Their first recommendation was that we not proceed with that particular clause because it would have consequences that haven't been thought out. Custom adoption is one example.

What we're hearing in other committees is that the provincial judicial system doesn't have a good handle on the complexity of land codes in first nation communities.

I wonder if you could comment on that. I'll go to Chief Bellegarde first. Do you have any views on wills and estates and whether we should just delete that whole clause and perhaps have a further study that would outline the potential consequences?

Chief Bellegarde.

9:25 a.m.

Chief, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations

Chief Perry Bellegarde

On that particular section, again, any time you're off-loading responsibilities from the federal crown to the provincial crown, there are going to be issues. Provincial laws of general application applying on first nation lands are going to be very problematic.

I've always talked about occupying the field, and under first nations laws, to me—like every piece of legislation that's being developed now by this government, whether it be about matrimonial real property, the First Nations Financial Transparency Act, or amendments to the Indian Act—when we have the templates in place, those will be the laws that occupy the field.

So at Little Black Bear, there will be our own first nations wills and estates act, under first nations law and jurisdiction. We will have our own land holding tenure act, if we want to go down that route. We need to develop our own pieces of legislation; we don't want the province coming in. I think it's going to be very premature and very problematic, if that continues to go ahead, especially on wills and estates. We have to exert that jurisdiction, and having that whole piece changed is going to be very problematic, because the provinces, again, don't have their head around first nations jurisdiction, so we have to continually assert that jurisdiction.

When it comes to land, I've read all the statements by all the presenters so far. Because of subsection 91(24), the federal crown is responsible for Indians and Indian lands, but in our view as an indigenous people, the Little Black Bear First Nation is sovereign land. We don't view it as federal crown land set aside for the use and benefit of Indians. That's why, when you start talking about individual land ownership, it's problematic because we can't own land. You can't own Mother Earth. Even our world view...those things have to be considered, and always put in place.

Those are some quick comments on that.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to Mr. Seeback, for the next seven minutes.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chartrand, it's been very educational for me to listen to a number of the comments you've made. It reminds me of being back in law school, listening to one of my professors talk about subjects that he or she knew a lot more about than I did.

I want to talk about a couple of things, and I only have seven minutes, so I'll try to get through them as quickly as possible.

One of the things we talked about is the sections on wills, which people are saying are problematic. My understanding is that if those sections are removed, then issues with respect to the legality of wills, and how those wills are interpreted, would fall under provincial jurisdiction or the provincially applicable rules.

I never did wills and estates, but my understanding is that the legal framework for wills and estates isn't significantly different, province by province, across the country—I don't know if you know that or not. So I don't see how that makes the significant change that I'm hearing.

9:25 a.m.

Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

Paul Chartrand

I have the impression, I hope, that supports your observation about the relative uniformity of wills legislation.

But my point would be that when the wills legislation was originally enacted by the provinces—and this is old law in all the commonwealth jurisdictions—it was not enacted with the consideration of the particular circumstances of indigenous peoples, the indigenous community and its family relations, in mind. That's the basic flaw.

What are the implications, exactly? I don't really know. That's why I subscribe to the idea that this particular proposal to repeal these particular provisions must be looked at very carefully, and some process should be put in place to try to do better in that regard.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

I'll switch gears.

At this committee, one of the things that has been suggested is that the word “organizations” be removed from the preamble of the bill—I'm not sure if you are aware of that or not—

9:25 a.m.

Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

—and it would say that it would be legislated to work in collaboration with the first nations, rather than first nations organizations.

I noted one of your comments today in your testimony was “that [there be] no amendment...without...consultations with First Nations' representatives”, which, to me, is fairly similar to “organizations”.

You're shaking your head. So what's your view on that?

9:30 a.m.

Professor of Law (retired), As an Individual

Paul Chartrand

Thank you.

No, it's not the same thing. “Representatives” is my attempt to use a neutral term.

Who are the legitimate representatives of the treaty first nations? It's up to the treaty first nations to decide that. I don't wish to refer to any particular organization. I leave it to first nations to determine it in their own ways.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

Do you think the word “organizations” should come out then?