Evidence of meeting #104 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consent.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
Thank you.
We're going to go on to the questioning, because you've exceeded the 10 minutes.
We're going to start with MP Danny Vandal.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
Thank you very much for your presentation.
Both of your presentations were very good.
I'll start with Pamela, because I got the sense you weren't quite finished. Do you want to take a minute of my time to finish what you were saying?
Coordinator of Aboriginal Initiatives, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
I can end with the key messages and lessons learned.
After more than 20 years' experience attempting to protect indigenous rights, we've learned that relationship building takes time, empathy, and willingness to learn and change. The forest sector is sensitive to social movements and trends, and the power of the consumer to demand better quality and a higher standard of development is important and has lasting impacts.
Finally, human rights and indigenous rights are tied to the health of the world's ecosystems. Without clean water, a diverse and abundant selection of plant species, and the diverse knowledge systems that have evolved to support these conditions, we will not meet our social or economic goals nor our basic needs.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
I want to start by talking about FPIC, but before that, you were quite clear. You were saying that the standards that you adopted at the organization are only for the forestry industry, and they're not for other industries. That's good to know.
What is your interpretation of free, prior, and informed consent? I know you've touched on it, but it wasn't 100% clear to me.
That's either to François or Pamela.
President, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
The interpretation of our process is that it is first and foremost a journey to build trust relationships with communities in the forest for our certificate holders to maintain their certification. It's not a switch that's on or off. It's not a destination; it's a journey. We need to establish that trust relationship that will find its own dispute resolution cycle within it. It's not something that is obvious to a beginner in our system or even to an expert company that's been with us for 20 years, which are in different positions on that spectrum of establishing trust relationships with first nations. That's my description. I think it's a mutual responsibility to create partnership between communities and certificate holders.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
At some point in the process, though, industry is going to want to have a direct yes or no. Does free, prior, and informed consent provide a veto, or is it just...?
President, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
Yes, at the end of the day, Mr. Vandal, it does provide a veto. If it comes to a dead end in which the trust relationship is impossible, it will end up there. In the spirit of mutual responsibility to build constructive relationships, it's the will of first nations not to end up there in the first place, but yes, it can end up there.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
Okay.
Let me switch to Susanna.
What is your interpretation of free, prior, and informed consent?
Director, Parliamentary Affairs, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
I will answer your question, but in the previous panel someone quoted a report that I wrote in which we talk about other aspects of—
Director, Parliamentary Affairs, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Good. There you go.
We have been very clear that UNDRIP is much more than FPIC, so I would like to have the opportunity to talk about some other aspects of UNDRIP.
Coming back to your question, though, I was listening very carefully to the previous panel. We would agree with the previous panel's interpretation of FPIC, which is—and I would tweak it a little bit—the requirement to build a relationship and seek consent in good faith. It's the collaborative consent approach that would be our thrust.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
Going back to your document, which I briefly scanned, I was impressed with the fact that the Chamber of Commerce stressed the need to do joint land-use planning.
Could you talk a little more about joint land-use planning with indigenous people?
Director, Parliamentary Affairs, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
This is from our members; these are companies that are actually trying to move projects forward and are engaged on a day-to-day basis with the indigenous communities whom their projects affect.
Their interpretation—and this is verified by indigenous representatives whom I've spoken with as well—is that there are huge gaps in this country in which you don't have a municipal government or necessarily even have a provincial or territorial government doing regional economic development planning. This was seen to be a major gap.
This is an area that we had recommended, in a report we issued last year, the federal crown could step into to create regional economic development plans so that there is a benchmark when new projects are brought to the table.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
I note with interest that the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce today called on the provincial government to move forward on a guaranteed minimum income exercise.
Do you have anything to say about that?
Director, Parliamentary Affairs, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
No, I do not.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
Okay. It was surprising.
Moving back to Pamela or François, what suggestions do you have for us—we have less than a minute—to improve Bill C-262?
Coordinator of Aboriginal Initiatives, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
I would say the engagement process is really important and that it should include all relevant parties right from the very beginning.
Our standard is quite explicit about the way development on traditional territories happens. Similar to previous panels, I think collaboration from the very beginning at the strategic and the operational level is very important. Only through those kinds of conversations will we be able to understand the true aspirations and the common ground that we can move forward on.
Liberal
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to our guests for being here today.
I come from northern Alberta. There's lots of forestry going on up there. I was recently at West Fraser, and they were very proud of your certification, which they had on their products up there. I'm familiar with your outfit.
One thing we're continuing to look for is how this engagement piece is going to work.
How is your organization funded? It seems that your organization is a neat apparatus to get the free, prior, and informed consent. It can say, we have this badge, and everyone knows that where this is being harvested, it has free, prior, and informed consent.
How are you funded to get to that place?
President, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
The funding comes from certificate holders' fees, and most is coming from the marketplace. We had 33,000 chain of custody certifications around the world, from big companies such as Procter & Gamble and Kimberly-Clark to name two in North America. That's where most of our income is coming from.
In terms of governance procedures, the boards of directors of these large companies do ask questions about UNDRIP and whether the rights of indigenous peoples are respected.
That's where, I think, the market pool comes from, with companies such as the one in Alberta that you were mentioning, Alberta-Pacific Forestries Inc. This is actually where we have the largest territorial certified force in Canada, working towards six million hectares. They produce market pulp for companies such as Kimberly-Clark and Procter & Gamble for their tissue market. It's in great demand. Values such as UNDRIP are key to their buying decisions.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
It's interesting that it's one side of the equation, I suppose. Is there any buy-in from the indigenous communities?
Coordinator of Aboriginal Initiatives, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
With our four-chamber, membership-based structure, we have representatives, not many, but from across the country, who have taken formal memberships. As part of our process since the very beginning, for a certificate to be granted, and also through the annual audit process, there must be proven evidence that the certificate holder or the forest company has maintained and in many cases improved its relationship with the local first nations.
Conservative
Coordinator of Aboriginal Initiatives, Forest Stewardship Council of Canada
Yes, it's because of the certification. We recently found, while revising our latest version of our standard, anecdotal evidence that many companies have admitted, and been quite forthright in saying, that because of our certification and because of the process, our relationships have improved. They have done things and made innovative choices they wouldn't have considered before, to the benefit of everyone in that region. We're hearing that more and more.
Again, the bar is high, but people will strive to reach it.