Evidence of meeting #146 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I would simply finalize this.
If after 12 months these coordination agreements are not dealt with in good faith, the legislation that has been developed by the indigenous groups will supersede provincial and federal law.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
That actually is a very good segue.
Thank you to the minister for coming.
When I started out here in Parliament, my maiden speech was on child welfare. The statistics are startling. In Manitoba, 87% of children who are taken are taken because of neglect or issues surrounding poverty. That means only 13% have actual allegations of abuse, and of that, only 12% have substantiated abuse in the province of Manitoba. Most children are not taken because of actual abuse; it's because there are major problems in how the system is dealing with poverty. I hope this starts a process in order to begin dealing with that problem, those 11,000 kids in care.
We talk about the laws. How are we going to determine when a law has been passed by an indigenous community? What constitutes an indigenous community? What constitutes an indigenous nation?
Maybe that's for the justice department. How are you going to determine that it is a nation?
Director General, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
In the legislation there is a section that talks about the duty of the minister to publish the law. Once the law comes into effect, the title of the law, the text of the law and the date of coming into force of the law will be published on the department's website. It will also be published in the Gazette. That will give public notice that a law has come into force.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
For instance, in relation to the Métis, would the Métis National Council in B.C., Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario pass some form of legislation, and then how would that become a law? Would the federal government take that law and publish it in the Gazette?
Director General, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
It's section 35 rights holders that will be able to develop such laws. As the minister has explained, there is a process of making a request to have a conversation with either the province or the territory in which the community is located. After 12 months of negotiations, the law would come into effect, and then we would have the publishing tools that I just mentioned to you.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
If Treaty 2 Territory, for example, decided to come together, would it have to pass it under the Indian Act under bylaws or would—
Director General, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
No, it's under this framework. This legislation creates the framework under which indigenous groups, bodies recognized under Section 35, could develop their laws and then have them published in order to implement their laws.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
How do you determine if that's a constituted group?
Director General, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
In the definition section, it talks about what is an indigenous body that can do so. There is a specific word that says “authorize”. The indigenous governing body means a council, government or other entity that is authorized to act on behalf of an indigenous group, community or people that holds rights recognized in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. There are different mechanisms to be authorized.
Some first nations may decide that resolution would serve as a purpose to provide proof that the body coming to negotiate is authorized on behalf of either a community or a group of communities.
If you have a group of communities coming, in your example, under Treaty 2, then perhaps each community would have a bylaw or a mechanism that speaks to the fact that it authorizes the body to engage with the provincial or territorial government to discuss the implementation of the law this group would have.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
Thank you, Minister and departmental staff.
Ms. Wilkinson, do we have a legal opinion on the question of constitutionality that we're talking about?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
I'll ask my colleague from the Department of Justice to speak to that.
Conservative
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aboriginal Affairs Portfolio, Department of Justice
As always, the Justice Department has been working very closely with our colleagues at Indigenous Services Canada in relation to this bill. We are not necessarily going to be in a position to share the legal advice, but I'm very happy to provide a bit of an outline of some of the relevant case law if you'd wish.
As Deputy Minister Tremblay said, the bottom line of the Government of Canada is that this is a valid exercise of federal jurisdiction under subsection 91(24) of the Constitution Act, which uses the old language of “Indians, and Lands reserved for the Indians”. This legislation is intended to deal with indigenous children and to address the needs of and support for indigenous children, communities and families in the exercise of their section 35 rights. There is a constitutional basis for the legislation.
I will acknowledge that the provinces and territories under their jurisdiction, subsection 92(13) of the Constitution Act, have long been exercising jurisdiction in this area. In a way, this legislation is best viewed as a federal overlay, a “double aspect”—to use the constitutional law term—that is very much intended to support the exercise of indigenous jurisdiction in this area.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
Mr. Minister, it's interesting and our shadow minister agrees. The number of children in Saskatchewan that are in care today is higher than under the residential school system. That speaks lots. I know that the provincial government in Saskatchewan feels left out. You were in Saskatoon last week. You did not meet with the minister. You were one of the ministers in the same room with the FSIN officials.
When you bring the federal aspect into the provincial aspect, why would you not meet with Paul Merriman, the social services minister, one-on-one, when he asked you last week for a meeting. You turned him down. Why is that?
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I turned him down because he wanted to talk about the legislation, and the legislation—
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Yes, and I'd very much like to talk to him about the legislation with the leadership of our co-development partners: the Assembly of First Nations, the ITK and the MNC leadership that was present. Three fine people were present for some of the meetings. We were as accommodating as possible. He did not want me in the official meeting, because he didn't want them in the official meeting, so we tacked on an extra day. It was a good opportunity then for us to discuss it.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
But I can see the reservations right now of the Province of Manitoba and the Province of Saskatchewan, because you wouldn't meet with them. They have been in charge of this. They may have some issues they want to share confidentially with you, and you, as the minister, should take the time to meet with the provincial head. I'm very disappointed that you didn't do that. If you're going to do the consultations, start with the rights holders right now—the Province of Saskatchewan—which you didn't do. Why are you not doing that?
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I'm very disappointed they wouldn't meet with me. I'll be blunt. This is what reconciliation looks like. They wrote it with me.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
I know this legislation was partially written by the FSIN. I'm true on that, but now you've caused an issue in my province of Saskatchewan—
Conservative
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
No, I'm not content with it, but there it is.
