Evidence of meeting #98 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson
Diane Lafleur  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Paul Thoppil  Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Sony Perron  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

4 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

That wasn't the question. The question was if you have proof that the settlement of privilege was applied, and it wasn't.

I want to move on from this. Did you get any advice from the nine supervising judges on the superior courts about the legal obligations to disclose these sworn testimonies that were gathered in the cases prior to 2006? There's an enormous amount of evidence and documentation there. That should have been part of the IAP, and should have been part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It seems to be sitting in someone's drawer at the justice department. Did you get any legal review or advice?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

You have just a couple of seconds.

4 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Diane Lafleur

The IAP doesn't apply to every case of abuse. We have worked and continue to work to address the cases of abuse that are not covered by the IAP. It was never designed to cover every single instance of abuse. Which is—

4 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It was designed to follow the law.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Except that 98% have been resolved, and we're working very hard on the 2%, which are obviously the most difficult.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

I'm going to move the questioning over to MP T.J. Harvey.

4 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us today.

In our recent study on indigenous land rights, we heard from many witnesses that the government needs to reform how negotiation mandates are established to make them much more flexible and malleable. We also heard that the successful agreement should represent an ongoing relationship between crown and indigenous peoples. Our committee drafted a recommendation to reflect what we heard on these points: in budget 2018 invest $51.4 million over two years to continue to support federal and indigenous participation in recognition of rights of self-determination discussions.

Can you explain how this new approach and the new money will be spent to support it, as you claim, accelerate, and transition to self-determination?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

One of the reasons we've needed this sum of money is that in the past we really only had the authorities to either fund an Indian Act band or a self-governing nation. If communities wanted to come together to start to talk about reconstituting a nation, they'd have to take out a loan. We weren't able to really fund that conversation.

That's what's exciting now, that people have the money to be able to fund those kinds of conversations. Ktunaxa band, four Indian Act bands, had to actually incorporate as a society for us to be able to send the money for them to have that conversation. This new money and the authority allows us to fund those conversations for communities to come together. Incurring a debt is an impediment to communities coming together. I've been in communities in British Columbia where 20 years later they're $30 million in debt. It inhibits people's real interest in actually going down that road. Obviously, lots of people in the community aren't sure it's worth either the time or the money. That's what's exciting about this new approach.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

We also heard from government and first nations, Inuit, and Métis nation leaders about the importance of a distinctions-based approach to your work, looking at them through a different lens independently. We've also heard comments from a number of first nations, Inuit, and Métis leaders about how pleased they were with the fact that budget 2018 seemed to adopt a far more distinctions-based approach.

Can you explain why you think this shift is so important and how you believe it will lead to better outcomes?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

As we began, obviously a distinctions-based approach is hugely important to first nations, Inuit, and Métis. Métis had felt that they'd been left out in the shadows as the forgotten people for a very long time. Inuit had their land claims, but a lot of what was in the land claims, whether that's language or some of the other things that they've been very concerned about, has not been implemented. You end up with the first nations being at various parts in the continuum towards self-determination, and we need to be able to have different approaches depending on where they are, from totally self-governing to not even beginning.

The key is culture and language. Without culture and language, without a secure personal cultural identity.... That is your resilience, your self-esteem, and your ability to go forward. Whether it's health, education, or child welfare, there needs to be that cultural safety that allows a child to grow up to be a proud first nations, Inuit, or Métis person. A distinctions-based approach is very important, as we've learned from pan-aboriginal approaches that just don't work. That's why, whether it's housing, indigenous health, skills and training, post-secondary, or particularly early learning and child care, they want a separate fund that will make sure that their people do well in a culturally safe way. Again, as we look to the urban issues, that is becoming really telling as to the kind of distinctions-based approach that we will need in urban strategies.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Through our committee's work, we heard quite a bit of testimony around the move towards non-repayable contributions in the model for participation in modern treaty negotiations. This is something that I know you've been very supportive of. Can you explain why the government's perspective on the move to non-repayable will accelerate the settlement of historic claims in modern treaties?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

As we were saying, people didn't necessarily want to incur debt, and I think the other piece that really is different is that we want to avoid the old denial-of-rights approach and move to a straight recognition of rights. It used to be that communities would have to claim their rights and then go prove them in court, which cost a lot of money. We are trying to say let's not do that anymore. As we said here at this table many times, it seems ridiculous to spend all that time and money for Canada to lose in court. Let's just get to the table and find out the kinds of things that these communities want to assert in terms of jurisdiction.

Obviously right now child welfare is very important. A lot of communities would want to have jurisdictional control over the wellness and rights of their children. We are no longer saying that you have to embark on a huge, comprehensive claims policy that we know didn't work. The inherent right policy didn't work. At these 50 or 60 tables, they start with a blank piece of paper and ask, “What are the priorities for your community? What would you like to work on first in terms of drawing down”—or really not drawing down because the rights are there—“asserting the jurisdiction on these things?” For some of the coastal first nations it's their fishery. The 23 Anishinabek nation on an education system.... We are working through the priorities of that community and that makes people want to come and do it.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Thank you, Minister.

Questioning moves to MP Kevin Waugh.

March 20th, 2018 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Welcome back.

The last time you were here a few months ago, I had the privilege to ask you for the cost, and you did say that you now had kind of two departments. If you don't mind, since it's seven months into this, could you give the committee an indication of how much more Canadians are investing with this institution of two separate departments? You did talk about two separate departments; we did hear that. How many more jobs have been created? Maybe the most important one is what's the increase in administrative costs? If you can, do it quickly, because I have a lot of questions to go through here. Can you give me an update?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Maybe Paul will do this.

Basically, we are sending a whack of money from our department over to indigenous services. We now have money to begin the—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

How much more?

4:10 p.m.

Paul Thoppil Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

In terms of this fiscal year, the incremental costs so far have been $3 million. That is the beginning—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

For the first three months?

4:10 p.m.

Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paul Thoppil

Since the order in council came out, which was November 30. That is the beginning. The costs associated with the transfer over of the first nations and Inuit health branch from Health Canada will have to be taken into account. You should expect to see a transfer in the main estimates of that portion of the internal services of Health Canada over to indigenous services. Discussions are also evolving in terms of what the incremental cost would be in administration in order to support two stand-alone departments. Those discussions and the amounts outstanding to implement those haven't come to fruition as yet.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Next time you come we'll ask the same question—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Kevin, what we are hoping, as you know, is that eventually indigenous services won't exist anymore.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Yes.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Eventually that will move to indigenous self-determination and indigenous-led institutions. That department disappears.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I just spent eight days in Nunavut. It's your lucky day. I went to nine communities last week. Of the infrastructure spending since you took office in 2015, not one community has received a dime. I was in one hamlet called Naujaat. Robert Hedley told me they haven't received any money. In the 2017 budget, you made the big splash: $650 million on northern and rural infrastructure over five years. Now we learn that $450 million of that is going to be postponed until 2022. What happened? I spent last week in these communities. Every community has had no money. They're waiting.