Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2020

[Tabatha Bull]

I think there's a real opportunity for us to be able to see some of the retail businesses pivot to an e-commerce platform. Shopify has been a real support for indigenous business, but a lot of the businesses I've been speaking with, smaller indigenous-owned businesses, normally would sell their products at powwows or conferences, or potentially through stores, and they're really having to pivot to an online shopping experience. That is where it's very important for them to have good broadband.

We even have a member on the Six Nations reserve not far outside Toronto, and they have difficulty being able to be an e-commerce platform company. I think that this difference is going to widen the gap, and we need to make sure that we're really pushing so that those businesses can pivot to e-commerce.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

That brings us to the time, Madame Bérubé.

We have two and a half minutes for Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bull, how important is it for indigenous businesses that the government prioritize indigenous communities when it comes to critical infrastructure, especially as we begin to rebuild our economy post-pandemic?

[Tabatha Bull]

It's incredibly important, not just on broadband, but also if there are business owners who have moved back into their homes and are over-crowded and if they're in an area where they don't have drinking water because there's a boil water advisory, and we're in a pandemic or moving out of a pandemic—potentially with the risk of a second wave—the indigenous people in those communities are at high risk. Moreover, if you're also trying to operate a business out of that space, you're definitely going to be at a greater disadvantage. The infrastructure is key.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Michel, in your view, is the $17.3 million over three months for northern airlines sufficient? What will the situation be like for northern airlines beyond this three-month period?

[Sébastien Michel]

Beyond the three-month period, it's very difficult to predict what the situation will be. Of course, the purpose is to have initiatives to get people travelling again, either for tourism, mining exploration, construction or environmental projects. We think the goal right now is to get people to travel again, so it's very hard to predict, of course, what the outcome will be. Our message is, let's not spare any effort to get people travelling again.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

So do you think the government could be doing more to support this essential service to ensure that you can continue functioning beyond the three months?

[Sébastien Michel]

Absolutely, because if our members do not receive enough support, we're going to fall back on the private sector to support the essential service, which in the first place should not be our mandate.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I completely agree with you.

How much more time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Five seconds. Sorry.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay. I will say thank you, then, to the panellists.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We're on five-minute rounds.

Mr. Schmale, you want to bring forward a notice of motion. Would you allow Mr. Battiste to take your place and then you can conclude the meeting up to the time with that issue? Would that be okay?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, if the committee's okay with that, it's fine with me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Everybody wave if you agree. Okay.

Mr. Battiste, are you ready? Can you do your five-minute round and then we'll conclude with the motion?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I just thought the discussion around procurement was a very interesting one and this 5% as a [Technical difficulty--Editor]. Can you elaborate about what it would mean to first nations, what it would mean to communities, if we could increase that?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

Who are you asking?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Whoever wants to speak to it. I was listening to the earlier discussion and I think it was a great point.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I think this is the biggest opportunity for low-hanging fruit for the indigenous community right now. The government, for the past 30 years, has been below 1% as far as a target is concerned, and mostly because it's a cultural change that's required in government. It will take an alignment of all the departments, let alone going to the provincial and municipal governments. It's a $1 billion dollar opportunity at the federal level, and then we can take that to the municipal and provincial levels.

This is a huge opportunity if we can get the managers who make those decisions at the local level to choose indigenous suppliers, and then if there are consequences for not selecting indigenous suppliers, then we will see a wholesale change and actual businesses getting into it. I used to work for Aboriginal Business Canada 20 years ago and procurement was a big thing, but the whole thing was having indigenous businesses see value in doing it because they got a noes every single time they tried.

If we can turn it into yes's, then you'll see a wholesale change and the 24% that Tabatha was talking about. They'll come out of the woodwork and meet the needs.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Can either of you speak to what the numbers look like on procurement on reserve? I know that some communities have capacity with their own development companies and others don't across Canada. I'm just wondering if you have any knowledge of research that would say that by increasing procurement everywhere, it would increase capacity on reserve as well.

[Tabatha Bull]

We've done a few studies and some of our corporate members have done some studies on the impact of procurement from indigenous business on the neighbouring communities. Suncor, again, is an example. Based on their procurements—they're purchasing about $650 million from indigenous business—as well as Imperial Oil in the Fort McMurray region, the annual salary of people in Fort McKay First Nation region is closer to $75,000 a year versus the average salary in Alberta of $35,000 or $40,000 at the time of the study.

So we really see a real direct impact on the community. I spent some time with Mark Little when he was the COO and we met with a number of ministries. He said that it really made a difference for him to know that that's where the money was being spent. When he went to the community, he could see a new elders' facility or a water treatment plant, and knowing that the money's going back into the community and not, in his words, “to somebody's golf course membership”, made a difference to him as a socially responsible business owner.

We also see from indigenous businesses that they're able to keep their traditional ways as well. Being able to do seasonal work that allows them to continue to hunt and fish when they want and need to is a real benefit to those communities as well, from a cultural point of view.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I also think there's a bit of missed opportunity in communities specifically. You'll have a first nation economic corporation that has the ability to build a water treatment plant bid on a project and not win that contract because of the processes and the eligibility requirements right now on procurement.

We we need to change the whole process to ensure that if we're going to be targeting a certain percentage of indigenous businesses, we make it so that they're able to be awarded the contract. With the scoring system and social impact metrics, there's a wholesale change that needs to happen because the current system is not working.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

During COVID, we've seen a lot of different programs based on trying to make sure that businesses are able to access capital through interest-free loans, through forgivable loans.

What opportunities are there for first nation businesses in how we move forward? Are some of these loans something that would be of benefit to indigenous business? What is the actual capacity of indigenous businesses right now to borrow at reduced rates?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have just 20 seconds. Go ahead.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

We'll be launching the emergency response program. It's going to be a $30,000 loan with a $10,000 non-repayable portion. However, already in our survey, 46% of the businesses surveyed said they could not afford a loan because they're going to have to earn revenue to repay it and they already have a loan from starting the business. We're not providing them with support other than prolonging what's going to happen, so we really need to take another look at it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you.

Mr. Schmale, you're next, but I have a hand up from Mr. Fergus.

Mr. Fergus, is it a point of order?