Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 20th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

As we have quorum and are past the time, I accordingly call this meeting to order.

I start with the acknowledgement that in Ottawa we meet on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people. All of us have land acknowledgements in our various places. In my case, it would be Anishinabe, Haudenosaunee and Chonnonton first nations.

Pursuant to the order of reference from the House of April 19, 2021, and the motion adopted on February 25, 2021, the committee is commencing its study—well, it has actually been under way for some time—of Bill C-15, an act respecting the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts.

I will clarify to members that the cited motion has the effect of merging our previous subject matter study with this new one under the order of reference.

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When speaking, make sure that your video is on, and speak slowly and clearly.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on March 9, 2021, I inform the committee that everyone has completed a technical pretest.

With us today is the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, the Honourable Carolyn Bennett.

Minister David Lametti was to join us today. He has been unavoidably detained. His submission will be delivered by Minister Bennett.

Minister Bennett is accompanied by Ross Pattee, assistant deputy minister; Marla Israel, the director general; and Laurie Sargent, assistant deputy minister.

Thank you, all.

Minister Bennett, would you please begin with your statement?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Chair, before you go on, I have a point of order, just for a quick discussion if we could. Regarding Minister Lametti, his appearance was quite important, given that he is the sponsor of the bill.

Is there an opportunity to bring him back before this committee before we do clause-by-clause?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

That would be my hope, but I put that to the clerk.

Mr. Clerk, how are we in terms of the ability to do that?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Naaman Sugrue]

If the committee were to so decide, then I'd endeavour to make it happen. Our next meeting is clause-by-clause on Thursday, but I see no reason the minister couldn't also attend. It would be slightly irregular, given that for clause-by-clause witnesses don't normally make opening statements and are available to answer questions about the bill, but it definitely wouldn't be impossible, and the committee can choose to proceed how it sees fit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'd like to move a motion to call the justice minister to the committee at his earliest convenience, before we do clause-by-clause if possible. Potentially, that could mean before Thursday. We have a few more days. I don't know the availability of the room, but I'd like to see him appear before clause-by-clause.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, first of all, apologies to the committee. I know Mr. Lametti was scheduled to be here. Regrettably, something has come up that's completely unavoidable and therefore he is not able to join us.

I worry about the timeline. Minister Bennett has had co-carriage of this file from the outset. I think she, as well as a number of officials who have been working on this issue for many years, will be well positioned to go through with this committee and to outline the issues members might have around Bill C-15.

That said, if the minister is available before the scheduled time for the clause-by-clause on Thursday, we can try to get him here, but I don't believe it's prudent for us to wait, because the number of witnesses we have today can ably address any issues the committee might have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Battiste.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

My intervention is going to be along the same lines as Gary's, but I would like to get to line-by-line on Thursday. I'm not in favour of extending it any further, because we want to get to royal assent. We don't want any more stalling for what indigenous people have waited far too long to get.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Mr. Vidal was just before me, but I'm happy to hear Ms. Bennett, and then we can discuss in the second hour future—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Vidal, did you have your hand up?

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

With all due respect to the witnesses, I'm sure they're very capable and very knowledgeable, but at the end of the day, this is the minister's bill. It is the minister who has spoken on this bill in the House on a number of occasions. It is the minister who has defended the time frames and the invoking of closure.

It's imperative that we hear the minister before the committee speaks to this legislation. I would support Mr. Schmale's motion on having the minister appear before we begin clause-by-clause consideration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Let me suggest, then, as has been stated, that we go through the meeting today, and then determine whether we need more information.

Ms. Gazan, please go ahead.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

It's highly disappointing that Minister Lametti is not here today. It brings a whole level of unnecessary discussion, when we don't have much time to waste. I would be happy with a written submission from the minister, in advance of the next committee meeting, whereby we can review and submit questions to the minister independently, and move toward clause-by-clause by Thursday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Schmale, would you agree to put off the discussion on the motion until after we've heard witnesses today, and then, before the end of the meeting, make a decision on your motion?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, we can talk about it in the second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

With that, thanks everyone.

Minister Bennett, you have six minutes, and maybe a little more, because I understand you're going to read Mr. Lametti's written submission

Welcome, and please go ahead.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Thanks so much.

I will read Minister Lametti's opening remarks, and then I will move on to mine, Mr. Chair. That will take a bit more time, but it's really important that the committee hears what Minister Lametti had prepared to say to all of you.

Good morning. It is my pleasure to appear at this committee to discuss Bill C-15, An Act respecting the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

He was joining you from the Department of Justice, which sits on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Before I start to discuss the main points in the bill, I would like to acknowledge the untiring work of parliamentarians and Indigenous leaders to have the declaration implemented in Canada.

In particular, I would like to recognize the work of my former colleague Romeo Saganash, who introduced private member's Bill C-262 in a previous Parliament. That bill was examined and studied in detail.

It will take determined work and a sustained commitment by Parliament, by the government, by Indigenous peoples and by all Canadians if we are to give concrete form to the vision of self-determination, of governmental autonomy and of the harmonious relations between peoples that the declaration foresees. That is exactly the work that Bill C-15 commits us to do together.

Bill C-15 has its foundations in former Bill C-262 and was developed in consultation and collaboration with First Nations, Inuit and Métis.

The bill recognizes inherent rights and the right to recognition, observance and enforcement of treaties, agreements and other constructive arrangements. It also recognizes the role of the declaration as having application in Canadian law and as a source for interpreting Canadian law, including the Constitution. This is consistent with Canadian jurisprudence, which recognizes that, constitutionally, protected rights are not frozen in time. They are part of a living tree that grows and adapts to its surrounding context, including the development of new international norms, such as the declaration.

The legislation includes provisions emphasizing that measures to implement the declaration cannot be used to undermine aboriginal and treaty rights that are already constitutionally protected. To be clear, this provision does not seek to reinterpret or amend the rights in the declaration itself. It only confirms that this legislation cannot be used to derogate from the constitutional protection of section 35 rights, including treaty rights.

The legislation creates three specific obligations on the Government of Canada. The first requires the federal government to take all measures necessary to ensure that the laws of Canada are consistent with the declaration in consultation and co-operation with indigenous peoples.

The second obligation requires developing an action plan in consultation and co-operation with indigenous peoples. The action plan would address injustices and combat prejudice while promoting mutual respect and understanding with an underpinning in human rights.

The third obligation contained in Bill C-15 is a requirement to prepare annual reports in consultation and co-operation with indigenous peoples. This would provide transparency on the measures taken to ensure that the laws of Canada are consistent with the declaration and the action plan.

To follow this path, we must work in collaboration to determine the way in which the standards and rights set out in the declaration will be put into practice. This includes the main aspects of the declaration such as free, prior and informed consent

Free, prior and informed consent is a manifestation of the right to self-determination. It is about providing the opportunity for clear, effective and meaningful participation of indigenous peoples in decisions that directly affect them. Achieving consent should be the goal of any good faith consultation or collaboration process. To be clear, the declaration does not confer a veto or require unanimity in these types of decisions. If consent cannot be secured, the facts and law applicable to the specific circumstances will determine the path forward.

Bill C-15 will not change Canada's existing duty to consult indigenous groups or other consultation and participation requirements set out in legislation like the Impact Assessment Act. What it will do is encourage ongoing work to build on these types of arrangements and approaches.

I would like to acknowledge that we have heard several potential proposed amendments and want to assure members that we are taking these suggestions very seriously. We welcome your recommendations.

Bill C-15 demonstrates a genuine commitment to champion reconciliation and to improve relations with Indigenous peoples. In so doing, we will build a better Canada for all current and future generations of Indigenous peoples and Canadians alike.

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do you want me to go on with my own remarks?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Yes, please go ahead.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Okay, thank you.

I am speaking to you today from the traditional territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation. I wish to honour the waters they paddled and their moccasins which walked these lands.

It is my pleasure to appear at this committee to discuss Bill C-15. I am joined today by two officials from the Implementation Sector: Ross Pattee, Assistant Deputy Minister, and Marla Israel, Director General of the Policy, Planning and Coordination Branch.

I would also like to take this opportunity to recognize the leadership of former member of Parliament Romeo Saganash on developing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (the “Declaration”) and on legislating a framework to implement it here in Canada and I thank him for Bill C-262, which served as the foundation for Bill C-15.

The declaration is of critical importance to indigenous peoples across Canada, including the indigenous leaders who participated directly in its development.

The declaration is the result of decades of tireless effort, negotiations and sustained advocacy within the United Nations system, including by inspiring indigenous leaders like Dr. Wilton Littlechild, who you heard from last week. As Dr. Littlechild recently told me, all together, C-15 is a reconciliation call for justice and respect through implementation of solutions-based international treaties.

I believe that implementing the declaration here in Canada is essential to advancing reconciliation with indigenous peoples. This has been made clear by both the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, after six years of hearings, and the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, after three years of listening to families and survivors.

The TRC said that the declaration charts a path for reconciliation to flourish in 21st century Canada. The inquiry's calls for justice also call on governments to immediately implement and fully comply with the declaration.

The introduction of C-15 fulfills our government's commitment to introduce legislation to implement the declaration, establishing Bill C-262 as the floor, rather than the ceiling.

Prior to the bill's introduction, 33 bilateral sessions took place with AFN, ITK and MNC. In addition, more than 450 people participated in 28 regional engagement sessions, providing feedback and advice on potential enhancements to the consultation draft. Provincial and territorial governments, experts and industry stakeholders also informed the development of the bill.

While we acknowledge that some would have preferred a longer engagement, it was inclusive and meaningful. The current bill reflects the content requested by many indigenous partners.

Extensive meetings were also held with indigenous partners and other stakeholders after its introduction, to explain the bill's content and work on further enhancements. As Minister Lametti has noted, engagement post introduction informed some further amendments, which the government will be supporting.

Co-development of the action plan will be a further opportunity to work in close partnership on implementation.

We have already begun preliminary discussions with indigenous partners on the design of that process. Yesterday's budget 2021 proposes to provide $31.5 million over two years to support its co-development.

Recognizing and respecting indigenous rights mean that indigenous peoples are at the table for decisions that impact their rights. In many cases, it means that economic development and stronger economic outcomes will be advanced with indigenous peoples as partners.

The declaration is broader than economic development. I'm so grateful for my conversation with Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond, who you also heard from last week, on her findings about racism in health care and her report, “In Plain Sight”. She was very clear about article 24 of the declaration, which states:

Indigenous individuals have an equal right to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health. States shall take the necessary steps with a view to achieving progressively the full realization of this right.

This will be very important in guiding the future legislation on indigenous health.

I also remember how important it was, during the summit on child welfare, to underline Article 7 of the declaration, which details the collective and individual rights to live free from violence, including “forcibly removing children”.

The declaration allows us all to develop a clear path so everyone can work together as partners with a shared stake in Canada's future.

As I said before, implementing the declaration is nothing to be frightened of. What is needed is fundamental and foundational change. It's about shedding our colonial past and writing the next chapter together, as partners with indigenous peoples.

It has been more than 13 years since the declaration was adopted by the General Assembly. I urge all members to support this fundamental and necessary change and support this bill.

Thank you. Meegwetch. Nakurmiik. Marsi.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks, Minister.

We're going to a six-minute round of questioning.

I have Mr. Schmale, Mr. Battiste, Madame Gill and Ms. Gazan.

Jamie, please go ahead.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister. Thank you very much for your words.

Minister, an infrastructure project such as the Trans Mountain expansion pipeline involved consultation with close to 120 indigenous groups. While the majority of these groups wanted to see the project proceed, four first nations opposed the government's approval of the project and challenged it all the way to the Supreme Court.

In the July 2020 Supreme Court decision, it was ruled that the federal government's approval of the project would not be overturned and that the project could proceed. The government had fulfilled its duty to consult, but some of these nations continued to fight it and vowed to do so, not recognizing the decision of the court.

Minister, can you confirm that with the passage of Bill C-15, the federal government and provincial governments will retain their authority to make final decisions in the public interest on major projects, even where not all indigenous rights holders agree?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

That's a great question, Jamie.

It really is important for people to understand that, even with Bill C-69, the issue is “nothing about us without us”. This means that, for good projects to go forward, indigenous people should be at the table at the original design of the project. This is happening in the north all the time. Inuit are at the table to determine.... Good projects go forward; mediocre projects get made better; bad projects get rejected. That's known right from the beginning.

We're in a transition now where there are a number of projects that may have been seen as controversial, but this is what will provide the clarity, going forward, as to how it works.

I think you've also underlined an important point. Consensus is not unanimity. There are going to be times when certain people object, but I think the courts are holding up the duty to consult and accommodate, and this will be the way forward. I think that this is....

The work I'm doing on self-determination, nation rebuilding and trying to make sure that, like in the north, there's a voice for a nation that is consistent with the will of that community and that we are able to go forward with a true government-to-government, nation-to-nation approach, in a true partnership going forward.