Evidence of meeting #32 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was laws.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you.
I also have a question for Mr. Richstone.
In the light of the main study on the COVID-19 pandemic and the problems experienced by First Nations, what difficulties did they have to overcome in having the bylaws related to COVID-19 enforced? I am referring to the bylaws that subsequently required them to enter into permanent agreements with the PPSC to have offenders prosecuted.
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
What we did, Ms. Bérubé, is to establish a kind of pilot project. We had considered taking some steps even before the pandemic, but we established this pilot project in order to handle the crisis. The protocol is renewed to match the impact of the pandemic among the First Nations.
Mr. Kilkie, do you want to add anything about the protocol?
General Counsel, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
No. I'm good with that. Thanks.
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Okay.
Does that answer your question, Ms. Bérubé?
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Do you know whether the communities might prefer the bylaw enforcement agreements to be maintained after the pandemic?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
I have no answer for that, but, as we said in our opening statement, we remain ready to take part in any kind of long-term solution. We are not the only player, but, if a measure seems to be helpful or effective for the communities, we will continue to work together with our partners to try and establish a longer-term agreement.
You know very well that we are dealing with a large number of communities, more than 600 First Nations. Agreements that may be helpful for one community may not be for another. We are going to need some creativity in the solutions we adopt.
Liberal
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, all, for being here to testify today. I found your testimony very informative and I really appreciate it.
I will start my questions by making a statement that, I reassure you, I don't need any of you to respond to.
In my opinion, this is a serious form of systemic racism, because the systems are so confusing, so convoluted and so all over the place, and the people who are paying for it are indigenous communities across Canada. That's not a personal attack; it's something we should all reflect on. The fact that these systems are in place and the way they are in place are devastating to communities.
I remember being a foster parent on reserve and trying to get the police to make sure the child in my care was protected. It was absolutely impossible because the jurisdiction of the restraining order was provincial, and we were in federal. It's so complex. I want to acknowledge that it is really complex.
Mr. Kilkie, you talked about protocol agreements, which are agreements with indigenous communities around prosecution. I'm wondering if any of those are public and if that's something the committee could look at.
General Counsel, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
I will have to check on that. We have 11 of them to date, and they are agreements directly with the community itself and the police of local jurisdiction. I will certainly look into that.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
That would be so appreciated. Thank you so much.
If I could come to you, Mr. Richstone, you talked earlier about, prior to COVID, working with key stakeholders around identifying solutions regarding prosecution. Was that with a particular region? Was it all across Canada? Who are the stakeholders?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
When we're talking about stakeholders, particularly at the federal level, about the federal government stakeholders....
As you may know, the issue of what kind of jurisdiction the Public Prosecution Service or the federal Crown has with respect to Indian Act bylaws is something that was very much questioned and had to be thought through and clarified. With the assistance of and in collaboration with our federal partners, we clarified our mandate to the extent that we felt we could offer and propose a pilot project with respect to the pandemic and with respect to the limited mandate we have been given by both the Director of Public Prosecutions Act on the one hand and the Criminal Code on the other. This is how we tried to design something we thought could work.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, I really appreciate that testimony.
I see that there are a lot of resources in the 2021 budget. We had them read out to us, so I appreciate that.
Please just unmute and respond if you are the person answering the question.
One of the things I'm concerned about is, what does it mean to declare first nations policing an essential service? I need clarity on that. There are some nations that have their own police, and there are other nations that have partnerships and agreements with other police or the RCMP. I'm just wondering what it means to make it an essential service.
Senior Director, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Aboriginal Policing Policy Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I would invite any of my colleagues to provide comment afterwards.
Basically, as we try to co-develop legislation that looks at first nations policing as an essential service, that's one of the things we want to look at and work with partners at defining and better understanding—
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
You don't know. Does it mean ongoing funding? I sort of associated it directly with funding that comes every year, so it's something that nobody has to fight for.
Senior Director, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Aboriginal Policing Policy Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
You're correct. Currently, the program is grants and contributions. It's discretionary funding. It has been oversubscribed for a period of time. There is pressure on the funds available. What we are looking to do is to remove that discretionary nature. Again, we don't want to impose a system on folks. We want to work in collaboration and co-develop what it means.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
The other thing is that these funding resources are there. I'm just wondering how much money is actually dedicated to building capacity within first nations communities to develop policing skills or expertise.
One of the challenges, of course, is that you have leaders that are doing everything that federal, municipal and provincial governments do within their own communities. Then, on top of that, we're asking them to figure out how to navigate a complex system of policing.
I'm just wondering how much of these resources are actually going to go into the community, so we say, “Here's some money to help you have the resources to actually figure this out.”
Can someone answer that question?
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management Branch, Department of Indigenous Services
With regard to the funding, I can speak to the very limited capacity we provide under the First Nations Land Management Act. I don't have the full total amount, but certainly, in 2018, we had an operational funding formula that allowed communities to receive funding for their policy analysts for lands. We also had a small amount of funding for an enforcement officer under that act.
It's up to the community to determine how best it's going to utilize it, based on what flexibility it's going to have in terms of how it's going to enforce it.
That is strictly—
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
The problem is, of course, that the RCMP often don't think they can enforce it. They do all of that work, and then the communities get the RCMP coming in saying, “Sorry, we can't do anything.” I know that's what all of you are hearing.
Thank you for that time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
Thanks very much, Ms. Blaney.
We go now to the five-minute round of questioning. We'll start with Mr. Viersen, followed by Ms. Damoff.
Arnold, please go ahead, for five minutes.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all the witnesses for coming here today. I appreciate their time.
Enforcement is really a part of justice. Equal enforcement is important, regardless of the situation, if the enforcement happens in the same.... The other part about it is the time from enforcement to prosecution. Those are important pieces of justice. Something I notice in the vast riding I represent is that the time from an infraction or an enforcement to the time it's resolved sometimes can be years. Sometimes the prosecution takes place hundreds of kilometres away from where the infraction took place.
Those things don't necessarily lead to a community that functions, mostly because of the timing. There doesn't seem to be justice because, for example, there's an incident; we try to enforce it; there's an infraction with fines and charges laid, and then two years later it's somewhat resolved, but everybody's forgotten about it by that time.
I think I'll start with you, Mr. Traynor. I'm not very familiar with the First Nations Land Management Act and how that works. If there is an infraction and there's enforcement on it, how long does that take to be resolved, typically?
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management Branch, Department of Indigenous Services
I would not be in a position to let you know. I'd have to go back and see if I can find out.
Generally, it's up to the flexibility of how the system is operated by the choice of the community, so it would depend on what the community chooses in terms of how it's going to manage that and which services it provides. You would be better placed to ask either the policing on reserve or others from the community who would be better able to respond to that for you.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
This is always one of the interesting things that happens with reserve lands. Is justice an indigenous service, or is justice a responsibility of the justice department?
Mr. Traynor, I'm going to start with you again on that, and then I'll turn it over to the justice department.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management Branch, Department of Indigenous Services
I'd have to defer to our justice department to respond to that question. Thank you.