Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[Karen Hogan]

We definitely know the ones we've looked at, so we can for sure go back into our files and see what we can provide to you. However, I believe that to have a more comprehensive answer, you should absolutely speak with Public Safety Canada. They would be able to give you that answer.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It's your report—

[Karen Hogan]

I can provide you the support that I—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

—and you've alluded to that; you've said it. If you say this is an issue, you know who has and hasn't stepped up.

[Karen Hogan]

I can absolutely provide you the evidence I have that supports the statements we've made, but I also believe it's a great question for Public Safety Canada.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I get that. I'm talking to you, though.

[Karen Hogan]

If you give us two seconds, I think Jo Ann would like to add to that.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Sure. Thanks.

[Jo Ann Schwartz]

Just to add to that, for the first part about the co-development legislation, we know that Public Safety is working on that right now. If you have them before the committee, it would be a good time to ask about the progress that's happening on the co-development work they're doing. We did see in budget 2024 that more funding is being allocated to the co-development legislation that's in the works.

In terms of the provinces, in the report we found that money was being lapsed. We asked Public Safety why that was the case, because as we note in the report, that was something we were a bit surprised by since we know there have been many observations about the program not having enough funding. It was Public Safety that told us they have to wait for the provinces to come to the table with their funds.

That was Public Safety's response to us, which we basically wrote in the report, so they would be best suited to explain who came forward and who didn't. That was the explanation they gave to us.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time there.

We'll go now to Mr. McLeod, who will have five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a really important issue for us in the Northwest Territories. We have 33 communities, and I believe eight of them don't have any sort of policing. In the Northwest Territories, the policy is that if there are no police, then we can't have a nurse situated in the community because of safety issues. It also means that we have people caught in very abusive relationships or abusive situations and they have nowhere to turn. In many cases, the only way is to get out of the community and go to the regional centre. We have a real challenge with some of our small communities and with out-migration to the regional centres, where in a lot of cases people end up on the street or couch surfing.

I've heard from a lot of the leaders in these small communities, and they tell me their lives are being threatened. If a situation develops in a community and there are no police, they go to the chief or to one of the councillors. A number of these leaders—a couple of the chiefs for sure—have almost lost their lives. I've had chiefs tell me about being on their knees with a 12-gauge shotgun pointed at their chest because a guy was going crazy and there was nobody to stop him so the chief had to try to intervene. It's really concerning.

The issue of alcohol and drugs is growing in the north. We're starting to see in our communities the issues we used to watch on TV that were happening in the south and on the reserves in the south. The drug gangs and the drug dealers are really influencing what's happening in our communities. That's a real concern.

In the situation in the north and in the Northwest Territories specifically, the ability to fund police services is a challenge. We've been really struggling to keep cash flow going to the territorial government because of the floods, the fires and the evacuations. Affording the cost-share portion for the RCMP has been a real challenge, but it's also a real challenge when it comes to indigenous policing.

As an MP, I've supported more allocation for indigenous policing—a bigger budget—but it doesn't make any difference because the partners we're hoping will join us, the territorial governments, can't afford to pay for policing. It doesn't matter if it's RCMP or indigenous policing. We always hit a wall with my questioning or when anybody else is questioning that. We'll hear that the territorial governments don't have enabling legislation. When you talk to a territorial government, you can see that there's really no incentive for them to do the work it takes to get the legislation drafted because they can't afford to join the program anyway.

I want to know whether during your audit, your office identified reasons why no community in the Northwest Territories or Nunavut has signed tripartite agreements to receive enhanced police services under the program.

[Mélanie Joanisse]

That would be an excellent question to ask the department.

When we saw that there were bilateral agreements for Nunavut, the idea was that there was now a bilateral agreement that wasn't there before. These are a precursor to having CTAs. If you don't have those agreements, you can't go to a CTA.

In the Northwest Territories, there were more funds allocated under the framework agreement. One reason, we were told, was about staffing and having officers to do the CTAs, but again, that would be something to ask the department.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time.

Looking at the time, I thought we might be able to get another short one in for the Conservatives and the Liberals, but it looks like after the Bloc and the NDP get to their questions, we will be at the end of our session.

Mr. Lemire, we'll go with you for your two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to use my turn to put forward a motion that we previously sent to the clerk. It is related to an unfortunate incident that occurred this week, when Air Canada staff confiscated the headdress of the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Ms. Woodhouse Nepinak.

The motion reads as follows:

That the committee affirm that sacred indigenous items such as flags and headdresses must be handled with sensitivity and respect, such items hold significant cultural, spiritual, and honorific value.

The purpose of this motion is obviously to acknowledge what happened, even though Ms. Woodhouse Nepinak received an apology from Air Canada. The airline said it intended to review its policy, which is good.

However, consideration must be given to transporting headdresses, as they are some of the most honorific ceremonial items for first nations. The headdress is a recognition of leadership. The eagle feathers it is made of have been blessed to support chiefs in their travels and help them face challenges. The handling of these sacred items is particularly contentious.

I would remind you that, according to the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, it is crucial that airlines respect and accommodate cultural practices, including indigenous practices and passengers' beliefs.

This motion also concerns the relocation of artifacts from the Huron-Wendat nation from Quebec City to Gatineau. I think there needs to be more consultation with first nations and a greater show of respect.

The motion is drafted in such a way as to achieve consensus, so I encourage the members of the committee to adopt it now. That would be very positive. If not, we can discuss it at our meeting on Wednesday.

Thank you. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Because we haven't had notice, this would be you putting it on notice. It has to be available for 24 hours, and then it can be debated.

On Wednesday we will have committee business, so we can carry it on then.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

As you have 10 seconds left, we'll move to Ms. Idlout, who will have two and a half minutes with the Auditor General and her team.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I go to the communities that I represent, all have said to me that while the RCMP may be in the community, may settle in the community and may be welcomed by the community, and they work well together, this problem persists. The police work in the daytime only. In the evenings, they take a break because they need to rest. However, when there are women, elders or children to be protected in the evening because there is violence in the family, whether it's alcohol- or drug-induced, and they call the RCMP detachment, they get a reply from central office in Iqaluit, not from the local detachment. They only speak in English at that office, so there's a communication problem.

How can we improve communication between the police and community members? I know they need to rest in the evening, and central RCMP in Iqaluit speak only English. How can we improve the communication there?

[Karen Hogan]

As we previously answered, there are no community tripartite agreements in Nunavut, but the way I would approach this is linked to a finding that we saw around the services provided by the RCMP. I think it starts with being in the community and understanding the community. Also, to be familiar with culture and tradition, you need training beyond the normal sensitivity training that police officers might have. We found that that was not happening in a consistent way, and I think a great place to start would be to ensure that police officers are aware of the uniqueness of these communities and their cultures and are embedded—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I don't know if my question was translated into English properly, but I was talking about the importance of respecting charter rights. Nunavummiut are not getting their charter rights, like security of the person, when their calls are being answered in Iqaluit and when they're not able to get the protection they need in their communities. It's not about communication but about service and whether their rights are being respected so that they're getting the protection they need in the community.

Maybe the response can be in written form so that we can close off the time.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for providing the clarification. The question did not translate that way at all.

I can answer it rather quickly and say that we didn't look at the Charter of Rights and the impact linked within Nunavut communities, so I wouldn't have anything further to offer.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

That brings us to the end of our time.

Auditor General, Ms. Hogan, thank you for your excellent work and for being here. Ms. Schwartz and Ms. Joanisse, thank you as well for your time.

Colleagues, we will try to get a date as soon as possible with the various ministers and their teams to continue this discussion, but for today—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Ms. Idlout.