Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Welcome to meeting number 129 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

As always, I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and to express gratitude that we are able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Before we get started this evening, I want to thank members for gathering tonight at an unusual time for us. I also want to mention that tomorrow morning there are going to be tributes for the Honourable Murray Sinclair at 10 a.m. We are going to end our committee meeting slightly early tomorrow morning so that members have an opportunity to participate.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the committee resumes consideration of Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, waste water and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

To help us with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-61, I would like to again welcome our witnesses to the committee.

We have, from the Department of Indigenous Services, Nelson Barbosa, director general, community infrastructure branch; Rebecca Blake, acting director, legislation, engagement and regulations; and Douglas Fairbairn, senior counsel for Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs.

Before starting, I want to remind members that amendments are confidential and subamendments are to be shared electronically or on paper in both official languages and sent to the clerk for distribution.

I see that there are a few subamendments that have already been circulated this way. You should have those either in an email or as a paper copy as well.

We finished our meeting on Monday at clause 4. We had just carried NDP-9. Tonight, we are going to start with NDP-10. With that, we can get started.

(On clause 4)

I'll give the floor to anybody who might want to move NDP-10.

Go ahead, Ms. Idlout.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

My apologies, but I have forgotten. What was the vote for NDP-9?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Pardon me, Ms. Idlout. I didn't catch your question.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I have a quick question, because I didn't write it down. What was the result of the NDP-9 vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Idlout.

The result of NDP-9 was that it was carried. That has been passed by the committee, and we are therefore going to be moving to the next amendment, which is NDP-10.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

NDP-10 was brought forward by the Assembly of First Nations to recognize indigenous rights in their jurisdictions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

I will open the floor for those who want to make an intervention.

Ms. Atwin has her hand up.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all members as well for being here this evening. I know it's a busy week and I know we have busy schedules, but this is just such an important piece of legislation. I really appreciate everyone's efforts.

On NDP-10, we certainly support the ability for first nations law to be enforced and agreed upon in protection zones. I'm just wondering if this actually provides any additional practical authorities. If it achieves what I think it's trying to achieve, I don't know if it adds anything to the bill specifically. I don't know if I can turn to our experts on our witness panel here to just give us some insight into what that amendment does.

[Rebecca Blake, Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations, Department of Indigenous Services]

Yes, I appreciate it.

What I think you might be referring to is that the overall “Purpose” section of the bill outlines the key purposes to what follows. Already in paragraph (f), it really covers that source water protection and collaboration amongst provinces, territories, first nations and Canada. That's needed in those protection zones, as they're often off first nation lands, so that would be more the provision that applies to what you're probably trying to achieve through that one.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Atwin.

My apologies, but I forgot to mention earlier that because NDP-10 has been moved, NDP-11 cannot be moved. They are identical. I just wanted to make sure I flagged that for members.

Are there any other members who would like to make an intervention?

We will go to Mr. Battiste and then Monsieur Lemire.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I understand that the purpose of this section is to recognize the rights and to ensure that our laws are consistent with UNDRIP and the Constitution of Canada, and that you see this addition from the NDP as not necessarily needed because it's already covered in (f). Is that correct?

[Rebecca Blake]

That is correct.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Battiste.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Initially, we shared my colleague's concern. However, for the same reason as in the case of amendment NDP‑9, we believe that this has an impact on provincial and territorial legislation and that it first requires a bilateral agreement with the provinces and territories.

For that reason, we will be voting against this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

Are there any other colleagues who would like to make an intervention?

Mr. Melillo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just quickly, to build off the questions from Mrs. Atwin and Mr. Battiste, this not only seems to be covered in (f) but also seems to be fairly similar to NDP-9, if I'm not mistaken, which was just adopted. In terms of at least the guiding principles, with the addition of protection zones, would it not be covered in NDP-9 as well?

[Rebecca Blake]

Yes, absolutely.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

That's good.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Melillo.

Unless there are any other interventions, maybe we can just go to a vote.

Shall NDP-10 carry? It sounds like we want a recorded division.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

As I mentioned before, NDP-11 cannot be moved because they are identical.

The next amendment we will be moving to is BQ-3.

I know that Mr. Lemire circulated the text of a new amendment and that committee members received it by email and on paper. That will be the new amendment if someone wants to move that motion.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The purpose of amendment BQ‑3 is to meaningfully recognize and implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples; it recognizes that the government has some performance and accountability obligations. We must also see positive changes in the various aboriginal communities.

Moreover, on a first-come, first-served basis, if our amendment passes, the NDP amendment will lapse. We feel that the word “recognized” should be part of the amendment. This is why we are introducing a new BQ‑3 that incorporates the words “recognized” and “implemented”.

Therefore, the line would read: “which must be recognized and implemented in a meaningful way”. You can see it in the new version, amendment BQ‑3.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

Is there any debate?

Mr. Shields, go ahead.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

I think there was a little confusion between what you said and what I heard. Is “Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which must be meaningfully implemented” what is being proposed?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Absolutely.

The text of amendment BQ‑3 is on a related page.

Yes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Then do you have a definition of “meaningful”?