Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll now start a second round. We'll go as far as we can.

I have Mr. Schmale up first.

Mr. Schmale, you have five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our two witnesses here.

My question is going to continue on the path that Mr. Shields had taken regarding builders and partnerships with the federal government.

I guess you were talking about partnerships with the federal government in terms of ensuring builders are living up to their end of the deal, if you will. Maybe you could expand on that. What I'm trying to narrow down is that, especially off reserve, municipalities are responsible for building permits. We have provincial building codes. How are the feds involved?

Maybe I'll start with that and then get to my second question.

[John McKearney]

If you don't mind, Tina, I'll start and pass it on.

What has been explained to us, if I understand them correctly, by the indigenous fire marshals' leadership, is that, in some of these communities, they don't receive funding until the project is done. There is a need for the band—as I understand it, if I can use that term properly—to fund it first. There is a problem with that construct. Sometimes it leads to accepting substandard construction. Those are the types of areas they've explained to us that are problems.

They have also explained, and that's why they're trying to promote the first nations fire strategy, although I don't think I called that quite correctly. I think this committee understands that and has accepted that. By that, the bylaws, the structures, would allow for inspections similar to every other community. There have to be certain thresholds, annual inspections, safety inspections and such.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

When you said substandard construction, in that case it's more of a cash flow issue, more cutting corners to try to deal with the money they have.

[John McKearney]

That's one element of it that's been explained to us, yes.

Tina, is there anything you can add to that?

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you, Chief McKearney.

Yes, through the chair, the other piece is the enforcement piece. I think you already mentioned it. There are just those two pieces, the funding and the enforcement.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

In terms of the inspections, what jurisdiction would those fall under? Do you know off the top of your head?

[John McKearney]

As we understand it, they don't have the same processes in their communities. They're autonomous, but there's a gap in those regulations, those enforcement needs. That's the problem.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Is there also an issue with building material as well? Some building material might be more flammable than others, just to cut costs. Is that an issue as well or is it...?

[John McKearney]

Yes, the issue is probably not so much the material. We see that in a lot of communities where corners are cut, where there's no fire blocking and where there are gaps.

Again, the worry on any of this is the travel of smoke and fire in a structure where it can get hold and it can travel and run. Modern-day building materials and modern-day furnishings show us that we have roughly three minutes to effectively get at that fire. After that, it's certainly gone past the room of origin. It's involved the whole structure.

I can't say enough about, at the very minimum, working smoke detectors throughout these structures to get people out. The houses can be rebuilt. It's a very difficult time in everybody's lives when that happens, but at least people can get out and get out safely.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. Maybe just quickly give us your thoughts.

The last year was tough with some of the wildfires out in British Columbia. What kinds of conversations are you having with your provincial counterparts in different parts of British Columbia, or even right across the country, on measures and things that can be done by all levels of government to help reduce the risk of wildfires in the future?

[John McKearney]

Thank you. I'm going to let Tina expand on that a little bit further, but we're very fortunate to see, in some of the mandate letters and some of the work that the federal government is moving forward with, that it is really looking at a national perspective as it relates to the WUII, the wild-urban interface issues. There's some funding. I think it's about $34 million.

Tina, you can correct me on that.

It's trying to connect the dots between wildfires, which are a provincial responsibility, and structure fires, which are municipal responsibilities. Having oversight by the national body, by the federal government, to have consistent training as it relates to the wild-urban interface fire—which is different from a house fire and different from a structure fire—and equipment in readiness in our communities are key.

Tina, what are your comments?

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you, Chief.

I know we have brief time, so I'll just add to that the application of FireSmart principles right across the country in all communities. These are principles that help people prepare their homes in areas that are at risk.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

We'll now go to Mr. Weiler for five minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm also very grateful for the service of both of our witnesses and all you do to keep our country and our communities safe, and of course, Chief McKearney, for keeping Whistler safe.

As part of the budget this year, there is a significant investment of over half a billion dollars to fight wildfires. In part of this budget, there's funding to train 1,000 additional firefighters, as well as to incorporate indigenous traditional knowledge in fire management.

How does the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs work with indigenous leadership to incorporate traditional knowledge in fire management? What advice can you give this committee on this topic?

[John McKearney]

Thank you, sir, for your question.

One area that we believe strongly in, which could really support the disconnect between what is municipal or regional responsibility to the federal government, is the secretariat and creating a similar responsibility embedded in the federal government that looks at all these pieces—and especially this piece—similar to the U.S. Fire Administration or FEMA. They have their structure, but they're embedded right within the federal government.

That's what the CAFC has been working towards to see if that's palatable. We believe it is a way of better connecting the provincial fire leadership and responsibility to the federal level. That would be one area.

Tina.

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you, Chief, and thank you for the question.

Through the chair, Chief McKearney already alluded to this, so I'll just expand on it a little bit more. Through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, it would be important to be able to connect all the players and all the protocols with indigenous practices and the knowledge that our indigenous communities bring. The real risk is doing these almost legacy opportunities in silos.

One challenge is that, if we're going to have these 1,000 firefighters trained, we need to have the full team determining how that's going to happen. There may be this idea that you can train individual firefighters as individuals, but you need the departments and the equipment involved. We've already talked about what happens when there's a disconnect between infrastructure, equipment and training. You need that intersection of all of the pieces—the chiefs, the fire chiefs, the individuals, the communities and the resources. Opportunities to expand organizations like the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre with all of the players would be very helpful.

We have instituted a new climate committee at the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, which is looking at those issues further. We can provide further recommendations after the meeting as well, if there's interest. Thank you.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I would venture to say there is definitely interest. If you could please submit that in writing afterwards, it would be much appreciated.

Earlier on, you mentioned some of the barriers that are faced in having specialists such as fire technicians in remote areas and the possible incentives to recruit more people to do that work. I'm just curious how you'd approach that in indigenous communities.

Do you see there being more opportunities to train locally or do you see a need to train and bring in someone from outside the community to provide those services?

[John McKearney]

Thank you.

Ideally, it would be people in the community who have the desire and the capability of learning these. Obviously, it would have to start with an external mentorship of some sort.

As was mentioned about the fire trucks, those are no different from any other vehicle. They need constant care and attention to keep them operating properly, so you need members in that community to take on that responsibility. That would be right across all the communities.

Incentivizing communities to be autonomous and to be able to take these on, I think, is the most practical way to move forward on that.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

This is maybe my last question because I can see my time is running out here.

On the critical infrastructure piece, we've heard from prior witnesses in this study about the major issue with having one access road. I was hoping you could speak a little more towards some of the issues about access, when you're looking at infrastructure. How might we approach that as part of the two consultations that you mentioned that we're leading right now?

[John McKearney]

Thank you.

We see it in B.C., but I'm not sure of all the other provinces. Every community now really has to put forward a wildfire defence plan. That speaks to evacuation, the one way in, one way out.

Those are unique to each of those communities. Whistler is no different. Whistler has 15,000 residents, and then we double that at least when the tourists come to town. We have two or three communities that have one road in and out. This is a work in progress.

The Juniper fire in Kamloops last year was exactly that. It was mayhem. When that thing took off it was just a matter of minutes. I talked to the chief there about trying to get people out of there. You can't have everybody converge and try to get out of that large neighbourhood. You have to make some decisions to have a shelter in place for certain areas. It's not a one-size-fits-all. It takes good coordination to complete.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

Mr. Ste-Marie, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McKearney, I would like you to speak to the complexity of implementing intervention strategies specifically for the north. As you said, it is far, it is complicated, and it is cold. We talked about routes and the fact that the infrastructure is not always in good condition.

How could we improve? What advice do you have for the committee to minimize these complexities?

[John McKearney]

Thank you, sir.

My mind goes to this committee embracing at least a very high-level baseline set of recommendations or expectations relating to preparedness, education and response, working of course in collaboration with the indigenous communities and the provinces. I think leadership can be shown from this committee and from the federal government that now embraces the fire services across this country, which are municipally responsible. The federal government can really aid in having a common text right across the country, including in indigenous communities.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

I had thought that it was not a question of adopting a single strategy for the whole country, but rather several strategies suited to each reality.

You may use the rest of my time to comment on this.