Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 10th, 2022

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Ms. Saryeddine, you're an academic. What policy solutions and options are there when dealing with small communities and getting them the emergency capabilities?

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you for the question and thank you for the compliment as well. I hope I can live up to it.

One thing we talk a lot about, especially in small communities, is building right from the start. As Chief McKearney said, it's the education piece.

We have a wonderful program called “The Fire Chiefs Ask” where we try to have messaging go right out to the public, which helps them know what some of the strategies are that they can use. This year we had the privilege of collaborating with Minister Blair on this.

You gave the example of flooding. How do you prepare your home when it's coming to flood season? There are effective and useful strategies that many of us may not be aware of. Getting those out in a way that's culturally appropriate, in the right language and positioned in the right way for the audience is, I think, a very effective strategy.

Thank you for the question.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Given the fact that both forest fires and fires within homes are big threats to a lot of isolated communities and that flooding is often also a big threat, are there any programs to train people from those communities in both those things? To be more like a general practitioner in terms of emergency responsiveness would seem to me probably one of the only feasible ways of doing it.

Are there such programs? I know you train firefighters. I don't know how you train people in terms of flooding.

[John McKearney]

Yes, there is, and the fire service in general is changing to meet the climate changes we're experiencing. Again, it's in these smaller communities, to have people in the communities investing in their learning and their preparedness for this.

It does happen. The FireSmart strategy is common across this country, and it's just as necessary in an indigenous community as it is in a rural community elsewhere.

I'll give you an example of where we see promise. Last year, in British Columbia, we had a record-breaking wildfire year. I think there were about 50,000 evacuations here. There was a significant fire up in the northern Kamloops region, called the Sparks fire. B.C. Wildfire, which is responsible for wildfires, was not meeting the responsibility that they should meet, and they quickly understood that they were not including the indigenous people in those communities.

That discussion has gone on, and that's been recognized by the B.C. Wildfire Service. The indigenous people in these communities know their territory. They can get out in front of the stuff. The will is there. It's just that they have to be empowered, and there has to be collaboration with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Powlowski.

Mr. Ste-Marie, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greetings to all my colleagues of the committee.

Mr. McKearney and Ms. Saryeddine, thank you for being here and for answering our questions. Your presentations were informative and we are very appreciative.

First of all, since I am not a specialist in the field, I would like to know whether the fire services in northern indigenous communities are members of your association.

[John McKearney]

Mr. Chair, I apologize. I lost my French when I was eight years old, when I left Gatineau.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Perhaps Ms. Saryeddine caught that.

There's an interpretation button on your screen. If you put it to English, there will be a translation provided to you in your headset.

Ms. Saryeddine, perhaps you could give it a go.

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you.

Am I using the right channel for English?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Yes. You can go ahead and speak.

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Yes.

Thank you for the question.

If you don't mind, Mr. Chair, I will respond in English. My French isn't quite as good.

We have the absolute privilege and pleasure to have the National Indigenous Fire Safety Council, previously known as the Aboriginal Firefighters Association of Canada, on the national advisory council of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs. In our bylaws, we have individual fire chiefs as members.

Chief McKearney is the elected president. We usually have about a thousand individual fire chiefs, but because we have so many small rural communities, we don't have every individual fire chief. The way that the fire chiefs have addressed this in their bylaws is to form a national advisory council, which meets every month for two hours. There's a representative from every province and territory, as well as from all of the national affiliate organizations, such as DND, the Canadian Volunteer Fire Services Association and the National Indigenous Fire Safety Council.

For example, when we prepare to take part in a study like this—and we appreciate the invitation—we would have the opportunity to sit down with our national advisory council members from the north and the National Indigenous Fire Safety Council.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much. Your answer was very clear and very informative.

Mr. McKearney, you talked about reimbursements. Paul-Émile Ottawa, Chief of the Atikamekw Council of Manawan, also spoke to the committee about this last week. It is a question of governance. A few years ago, there were forest fires and the flames were getting close to this Atikamekw community. Given the lack of adequate services, the members of the community chose—if I understand what the chief said last week—to purchase pumps which they put into the lake near the community to extinguish the approaching flames. The fire was brought under control in this way and they avoided the worst outcome. The community then approached the federal department to be reimbursed, but was informed that such an expense was not eligible.

On paper, the federal government appears to recognize their governance. This community was facing an emergency, the flames were getting closer and, since there was a lake nearby, it chose to purchase pumps. Ultimately, the federal government ignored this governance decision and refused to reimburse this expense.

How do the members of your organization who are from indigenous communities, especially those in the north, deal with this governance issue and the reimbursement of expenses in terms of taking responsibility for their choices? What have they said about that? You referred to it briefly.

[John McKearney]

Thank you, sir.

Yes, we have. I don't think that's strictly just with indigenous communities. This is a learning curve for the provinces and the federal government to work together on right across this country, although it's a provincial responsibility on the wildfires. It is a patch-quilt sort of approach as to how the funding is dealt with.

Specifically for an indigenous community, it's complicated. I'm going to show my ignorance, but my understanding is that it's much more complicated because of the governance structure, and that's precisely what we're hearing from our indigenous leaders in the fire service.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much. Your answer reflects the problem in the application of governance.

Based on what first nations members have told me about governance, the various levels of government, whether federal or provincial, are just passing the buck. As Yogi Berra said, in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, everything works. In practice, there is. I think your remarks reaffirm this. Our committee will have to focus more on the issue of effective governance.

I have many other questions, Mr. Chair. How much time do I have left in this round?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Unfortunately, your time is up, but there will be a second round and you can continue then.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Very well.

Thank you again to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Madam Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

First, to those who are giving this presentation, welcome to this committee. Your report and your presentation are very interesting.

I was recently in Iglulik, one of the communities I represent. It's in the High Arctic region, in Baffin Island. I was told that they are thankful for the new truck arrival. The mayor and the council members whom I met with stated to me that they are very grateful for the new fire truck that will be arriving in the next sealift.

However, they are very concerned that there is no warehouse to put the fire truck in, as the current warehouse needs millions of dollars in repairs. I want to understand how important it is to keep fire trucks in warehouses in extreme temperatures. Should the warehouse have been funded at the same time as providing the new fire truck, before its arrival or at its arrival?

[John McKearney]

Thank you.

Yes, it's vital. The only functional way to deal with an emergency response related to fire is to have the equipment ready. A fire truck has water in it and you can't leave it outside, especially in Arctic temperatures. Without water, it's not going to serve you. Fundamentally, it needs to be indoors and heated, and it needs to be plugged in. That's typical of all fire apparatus across this country.

I hope that helps you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you for your response.

I understand that you represent the fire departments. Have you worked with government agencies on wildfires or Arctic climates, and, if it is arriving, on new equipment to address fire issues, like fire trucks? Have you worked with them?

What should be done and prepared? What preparations are needed? Have you shared those with High Arctic or northern communities?

[John McKearney]

Thank you.

Yes, we do. As the national body, we work through the leaders of the territories and provinces and such. We assist them so that it actually touches all three levels of government. We believe that we're a trusted adviser for the federal government in this regard. We work with the provinces, and thus they work with the municipalities.

I would ask Ms. Saryeddine to follow up if there is something further on this.

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you, Chief McKearney. I think you've covered it.

Thank you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Once again, thank you.

My last question will be in regard to the Canadian Arctic.

The Canadian Arctic has unique needs. Once I know that the truck is arriving and needs a better warehouse area, how and what should we do to repair it during the summer so that it's ready for the winter?

Can you help them find funding or resources to address this before the winter? The warehouse needs to be repaired for the fire truck to work.

[John McKearney]

I am stumped as to how to help you. We're working with our indigenous leaders in the fire service through the national body now, and these are all-too-common comments before us. I can assure you that our time together here will go back through Ms. Saryeddine and back to our indigenous fire marshals. Actually, it's not just in these areas. It's elsewhere, but I understand the immediate need there. I'm sorry. That's the best I can offer at this time.

Tina, is there anything you can suggest?

[Dr. Tina Saryeddine]

Thank you, Chief McKearney, and through the chair, thank you for the question.

As Chief McKearney said, we're not clear on the mechanisms for the funding when it comes to the indigenous communities. All of you understand that much better than we do.

One of the things that was successful in the last year—and again, I don't know if it applies to indigenous communities, so please forgive my being naive—and was very positively experienced across the country was allowing fire departments to have their projects be eligible for funding from the former gas tax fund, now the Canada community-building fund. That was something that didn't happen in the past.

It happened over the last year and was, I believe, province by province and territory by territory. Allowing that application from fire departments for their infrastructure funds to be eligible for that former gas tax fund, the Canada community-building fund, was a really positive development and is something that we want to thank all of you for.

I don't know how it applies to all communities, but I hope it does apply, and certainly, like Chief McKearney said, if there's anything we can do, you know where to find us. Thank you.