Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I have questions about consultations prior to drafting Bill C‑29.

You mentioned several times that many people had been consulted. Obviously, you know how many First Nations there are in Canada and on their own territories. Were they all consulted ahead of time?

[Andy Garrow]

Through the processes that were available, there were opportunities for all first nations, and everybody in Canada, to participate, especially through the open website that was posted.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

That does not answer my question. I want to know if they had the chance or opportunity to be consulted. I want to know if all First Nations participated in consultations and were able to give their opinion.

[Kate Ledgerwood]

We don't currently have that information, but we can check.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you. At the same time, if certain First Nations were unable to participate in consultations, please identify the reasons. As you know, many communities are remote and do not necessarily have the means required, specifically the technological means. I think Mr. Garrow mentioned the issue of internet. Some communities don't have the required infrastructure or the technological literacy needed to use it.

Did all communities truly have the opportunity, both in theory and practice, to participate in consultations? It would be interesting to know. Of course, I don't necessarily mean participation in person. In a broad consultation process, both the real and concrete opportunity to participate must exist.

I also have a question regarding the constitution of the board of directors, which will be a transitional board at first. I think mandates on the board will be for five years thereafter.

Who proposed the criteria for constituting the board of directors, whether it be the transitional board or the one that follows? Who made that proposal?

[Andy Garrow]

Thank you for your question.

In terms of developing the transitional committee, that was developed by the department in consultation with the minister's office. The appointments were made by the minister.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

These are therefore not proposals that came from First Nations themselves. The minister's office suggested criteria for constituting the board of directors, if I've understood correctly.

What were the reasons underlying the decision to represent each of these groups or organizations on the board of directors?

I'll give you an example. Based on my knowledge and contacts with First Nations, elders are extremely important in their communities. They are the guardians of knowledge, history, language and traditions. Of course, this is about setting up a national council to ensure implementation of all the calls to action by Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In my opinion, elders are the most directly involved in these issues, but they are not at all included in the makeup of this council.

Why did we choose these characteristics for nine directors? Why were elders excluded from its composition?

[Andy Garrow]

Again, thank you for the question.

Perhaps I could offer just one clarification to that. The interim board and the transitional committee were appointments by the minister, with different memberships as well. The nine to 13 members will be appointed for the council once it is established—or they will be named—and then they'll go through the incorporation process. That's how they'll be appointed. That's the process for the nine members.

The folks who were part of the interim board and part of the transitional committee were selected because they bring expertise. They bring background and knowledge. They were from a wide range of people across Canada. There was Chief Wilton Littlechild, who's a survivor. He's well known and he's been leading a lot of the conversation on this for 15 years. There are other folks, like Édith Cloutier, who's—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I really don't have much time.

If I understand correctly, it's based on merit, on the definition we have for merit.

I have a final question to ask, but as time is running out, I think I will save it for later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You still have 25 seconds.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Very well, Mr. Chair.

There was the issue of merit. Can you define your vision of merit?

Currently the definition of merit is based on what matters to the government. I know that it's transitory, but I'm wondering how it will be going forward. I think we also want to include First Nations in nominations for the board of directors.

How would you define merit, to become eligible as a member of the board of directors?

[Kate Ledgerwood]

Thank you for the question.

As Andy was mentioning, when they look to establish the first board, there will be an appointment, but the intention is fully that the board will make the determinations in the future as to how other members will be selected. They will make the determination as to how to ensure representation. It will be up to the board to make those determinations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐋ, ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥ ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ, ᐋ, ᑐᓐᖓᓱᑦᑎᑦᓱᒪᕙᑦᓯ ᑐᑭᓯᑎᑕᐅᕚᓪᓕᕋᑦᑕ ᐊᒥᓱᓂᒃ ᐋ, ᑐᑭᓯᒋᐊᖅᓯᒪᓚᐅ-ᕋᑦᓯ ᑖᓐᓇ ᒪᓕᒐᑦᓴᖅ ᓴᖅᑭᑕᐅᓚᐅᓐᖏᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᓱᓕ, ᐋᒻ, ᑕᒪᓐᓇᐃᓛ ᓈᒻᒪᑦᓴᖃᑎᒌᓕᕐᓂᖅ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓘᒻᒪᑦ, ᐋ, ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔫᔪᑎᒍᑦ ᐊᑯᓂᐊᓗᒃ ᓂᕆᐅᓕᖅᑐᒍᑦ ᓈᒻᒪᒃᓴᖃᑏᒌᓕᕐᓂᐊᕐᓂᕐᒥᒃ, ᐋ, ᐊᒥᓲᓗᐊᖅᑐᑎᒍᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᑎᒍᑦ ᐋ, ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᕗᑦ ᐋ, ᓱᕋᑦᑕᐅ-ᓯᒪᓪᓗᑎᒃ, ᐋ, ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᕗᑦ ᓴᐳᔾᔭᐅᖃᑦᑕᖏᑦᓱᑎᓪᓗ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᐋ, ᐊᐱᖅᑯᑎᒋᒍᒪᕙᕋ ᐋ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᒪᓕᒐᑦᓴᖅ ᖃᓄᖅ ᓴᐳᔾᔩᓂᐊᖅᐸ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᓂᒃ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅ-ᓯᒪᔫᑉ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᖏᓐᓂᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you very much.

Please feel welcome, for you have made us understand many things about this bill, Bill C-29, before it was established. That accountability is very important to us aboriginal people. Indigenous people have been expecting this for reconciliation.

For many of us who are indigenous, our rights have been broken and have not been protected. In the legislation you're requesting, is there any protection for aboriginal and indigenous rights?

[English]

[Andy Garrow]

Thank you for your question.

I think this bill will speak to that in terms of the two measures that are in there, one for the council that will prepare an annual report on how it views reconciliation being implemented across the country, including the implementation of the 94 calls to action but not just on the 94 calls to action. We've heard from the transitional committee and the interim board that they want to see what's happening across the country in a number of ways to promote reconciliation, and they will be commenting on that.

There is also the requirement for the Government of Canada to issue the state of indigenous peoples report in response to that, and that is also a part of the accountability mechanisms that are in place to ensure there is a response and that the Government of Canada is held accountable for reconciliation.

There is also, built into the legislation, the requirement to develop an information-sharing protocol with the council, so that for the areas of information and data that are outlined in the call to action and the other information that the council has required in order to do its job, they'll have that ability. That also speaks a little outside of it. Any organization can ask for information through the Access to Information Act, but it's designed so that there's an easier mechanism, or a different mechanism, for the council to get information from the Government of Canada to do its job.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐋᒻ, ᐅᑯᐊ ᐋ, ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᒋᔭᖅᐳᑦ, ᓲᕐᓗ ᐋ, ᓄᓇ-ᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᑎᒍᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅᐳᑦ ᓴᐳᔾᔭᐅᒋᐊᓕᒃ, ᐋ, ᐃᒡᓗᑭᑦᓴᓗᐊᕐᓂᖅ ᓲᕐᓗ ᐃᒡᓗᖃᕆᐊᖃᕐᓂᖅ ᐊᖏᕐᕈᖃᕆᐊᖃᕐᓂᖅ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᒋᖓᓗᐊᕐᒥᕐᓱᑎᒍᑦ, ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᓇᒻᒥᓂᖅ ᐊᐅᓚᑦᓯᔪᓐᓇᕐᓂᖅ, [ᓯᐅᓪᑉ ᑎᑑᕐᒥᓃᓴᓐ] ᑖᓐᓇ, ᐋ, ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᒋᒐᓗᐊᕐᒥᒐᑦᑎᒍ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᖓᓱᑐᐃᓐᓇᑯᓗᐃᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᒃᑲᓐᓂᐊᓗᐃᑦ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᖅᐳᑦ ᐋ, ᐊᑐᖅᑕᐅᕙᓪᓕᐊᖏᒻᒪᑕ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑎᒥᐅᔪᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐊᔭᐅᖅᑐᐃᔪᓐᓇᕋᔭᖅᐸᑦ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᖅᐳᑦ ᓱᕋᖅᑎᖅᑕᐅᒑᒐᒥ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

As for our rights, for example, indigenous languages should be protected. The lack of housing issue needs to be dealt with. There's also our right for our own self-governance and moving towards self-determination.

These are just three that I've mentioned, but there are a lot more issues. How can this body push when our rights are broken? How can you enforce anything when our rights are broken?

[English]

I'll ask the question in English. I think she misunderstood my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Do you mean the translator? Okay.

Go ahead in English.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

My question is not that I'm asking the government to enforce indigenous rights like language, housing and self-determination. I'm asking how this council would monitor and measure the protection of our rights, such as what I've listed.

[Kate Ledgerwood]

Thank you very much for the question.

As we've mentioned, Bill C-29 is to provide the frame for establishing the council, and I think one of the messages that perhaps we'll say, which we've heard quite clearly through the transitional committee and the interim board, was to create the frame but to let the council, once it's established, determine what its roles, responsibilities and functions—all of that—will be.

Really, as we've mentioned, it's supposed to be an arm's-length independent organization. For that reason, there are things that we can't predict, or we wouldn't want to suggest that we know how they will set these things up. The intention was always that the legislation creates that frame and the guidance so that the council can do the work in the future.

Your question is a great question. It's something that's difficult for us to answer now because we wouldn't want to suggest that we know in advance what the council, once it's established, would look to do in terms of its work. As Andy mentioned, there will be annual reports that will be coming. The council will have the range of what it would like to report on, and the government will be required to respond to the reports they provide us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

I suggest we suspend, because we're going to receive the minister momentarily, and there isn't time to start another round. If I may just ask you to be patient, we're waiting for the minister, and then we'll have an hour with the minister and the witnesses who are already with us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much. We will now resume.

Welcome, Minister. As you know, we have begun, as of today, our study in committee of Bill C-29. We welcome you to the committee.

The officials surrounding you have answered questions for the past half-hour, and we will continue now with you. If you would like to make an opening statement, please do so. Try to keep it to five minutes. Then we'll proceed to questions.

Thank you.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Please cut me off if I drag on.

Kwe kwe. Ullukkut. Tansi. Hello.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that Canada's Parliament is located on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people.

I'd like to thank the chair of the committee for inviting me to appear today to speak about Bill C-29, an act to provide for the establishment of a national council for reconciliation.

I look forward to answering these questions, because strengthening this bill and ensuring we move forward on this are priorities for all of us.

We marked the second National Day for Truth and Reconciliation on September 30, last Friday. Indigenous and non-indigenous people across the country came together in their orange shirts to continue to learn about the legacy of the residential schools and the intergenerational impacts. Orange shirts alone are not enough, though. We have to continue to take concrete steps towards reconciliation.

As committee members know, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission published its final report and calls to action seven years ago. Among the commission's calls to action, number 53 calls upon Parliament to establish a national council for reconciliation, while numbers 54, 55 and 56 expanded on the roles, responsibilities, and expectations for the council and the various levels of government. These calls to action are saying that, as a country, we need to measure our progress on reconciliation. We must be held accountable for our promises to indigenous peoples.

That's why we must implement the calls to action as envisioned by the TRC. It's important that the board of the national council for reconciliation be diverse and reflective of all indigenous people in Canada. If the bill is passed, as Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, I would collaborate with a transitional committee to appoint the first board of directors. The first council would then establish a process to nominate and elect future board directors, in accordance with the legislation stipulated in the bill.

The board would comprise nine to 13 directors, at least two-thirds of whom are indigenous. Three directors must be nominated by the Assembly of First Nations, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami and the Métis National Council, respectively. These criteria would apply to the first board, as well as to the future board once the council is incorporated.

In particular, the council will include representation from first nations, Inuit, Métis, indigenous organizations, youth, women, men, gender diverse persons, and various regions in Canada, including urban, rural and remote regions.

It is important to understand that the government does not own or dictate this process. This is a collaboration, and it has been since the beginning, as this bill was jointly developed with indigenous leaders.

Indigenous leaders led the interim board and transitional committee. They provided independent advice and recommendations that were instrumental in shaping the legislative framework before you.

One example of those recommendations is the decision to set up the council as a not-for-profit entity. Incorporating the national council for reconciliation as a not-for-profit organization under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act utilizes the existing legislation to set up the council. Moreover, it establishes and enables the council to be incorporated as a legal entity that operates completely independently from the Government of Canada. It will give the council legal status under the act and allow it to, for example, freely enter into contracts and have bank accounts. The council will also be able to independently fundraise for projects and future work.

It's important to note that budget 2019 announced a total of $126.5 million in funding for the national council for reconciliation, including $1.5 million to support the first year of operation. The funding can be used by the board to establish their endowment for future work, which was very important to the interim board.

I am grateful to the TRC commissioners, the interim board members, the transitional committee members, survivors, and especially the families, and all indigenous and non-indigenous people who participated in the engagement process. Their contribution was essential in shaping this important legislation.

I am happy to answer all your questions.

Meegwetch. Qujannamiik. Marsee. Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will now begin the first round of questions.

Mr. Vidal, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming today.

Minister, you talked about the call to action number 53 and the importance of independence. I want to talk about independence for a couple of minutes.

The Governor General, acting on the advice of cabinet, appointed the interim board back in 2018. They did six months of work and came up with a final report. Then, there was a long delay. You appointed the transition committee in December 2021. As you stated in your comments, you, the minister, in collaboration with the transition committee you appointed, will select the first board of directors. You'll take their advice. This first board of directors is then to establish an application process for future board members to be elected by an as-yet-undefined membership. We don't know who that membership will be yet. I get the non-profit organization. There are no articles of incorporation yet. I get all that.

In your own words, in talking about this body, you said it isn't up to Canada to be grading itself. However, when I look at this process, Minister, I have to ask you why you're comfortable having so much direct control or influence over this body tasked with holding your government to account and advancing reconciliation. Even if you don't feel you actually have that direct control, the perception.... It sure seems as if you do.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

MP Vidal, it's a very fair question.

As you look through the formation of the board, this is something that will be done with the committee. Ultimately, I consider the nomination of the first board a legal artifice. It's written in black and white that it is with the committee itself. The work is being done. I don't see my role as being one to veto people. Indeed, with respect to the appointment of the current committee, essentially I could have had a call on it, but I haven't. They have determined their membership by themselves.

After that, it's the Not-for-profit Corporations Act that prevails. They will determine their own way of reproducing what is in the act, but there's sort of a legal construct in there that we have to get over as part of the first hurdle, and that's one that has to involve consultation. I'm open to getting the recommendations you have—