Evidence of meeting #34 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was actually.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies
Ellis Ross  Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena
Clément Chartier  Ambassador, Manitoba Métis Federation

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 34th meeting of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin/Anishnaabe nation.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses, the committee members and members of the public who have joined us this afternoon.

I’d like to now welcome the witnesses who have joined us this afternoon as we continue to study Bill C-29 at committee stage.

With us today are Mr. Ellis Ross, a member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, who is with us in person, and Chief Willie Sellars, Williams Lake First Nation.

3:30 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Vanessa Davies

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Chair. Mrs. Gill would like to rise on a point of order.

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Chair, I want to make sure that the sound checks have been completed. At our last meeting, I was very uncomfortable having to interrupt Indigenous leaders.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

The Clerk

I'd like to inform you that the witness on the first panel is not here. Therefore, we didn't do a sound check with him. I also haven't had the opportunity to do a sound check with Ms. Atwin or with you, Mr. Chair.

Since Mr. Ross will be testifying in person, there's no need to do a sound check with him.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Very well.

Can you do a sound check with me and with Ms. Atwin?

3:30 p.m.

The Clerk

I will, gladly.

Tell me, how's the weather in your city?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

It's overcast in Montreal and a bit cold. It's the fall, but they tell me it's going to be nice for the next three days in Montreal. That's good news.

3:30 p.m.

The Clerk

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Atwin, can you say something?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Hello, everyone. The weather is sunny here in Fredericton. It's a beautiful day. I just shortly arrived home, off the airplane. Hopefully, you can hear me well.

3:30 p.m.

The Clerk

Yes, we can hear you well. Thank you very much.

I just got the thumbs-up from the interpreters. We're ready to proceed, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Madam Clerk, have you checked with Chief Willie Sellars, who is with us online?

3:35 p.m.

The Clerk

He's not with us online, presently. I can't reach him. I've had my staff try to reach him as well, and he's not responding.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Therefore, we will proceed with our only witness at the moment, Mr. Ellis Ross, member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. Hopefully, Chief Willie Sellars will join us very shortly.

As usual, to ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services in English, French and Inuktitut are available. Please be patient with the interpretation. There can be a delay.

For those in the video conference.... There isn't anybody there, at the moment, other than members, so I will skip that part.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name and, of course, unmute yourself when it's your time to speak, then mute yourself afterwards. There is a “raise hand” feature if you need to bring something to my attention. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, of course, put your mike on mute.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

The way it works, Mr. Ellis, is that you will be invited to make a five-minute opening remark, after which we will proceed with questions.

If you are ready, Mr. Ellis, welcome. The microphone is yours for the next five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Ellis Ross Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Thank you very much.

I was last here 10 years ago to talk about the exact same subject matter, but in a different context. I was here to get the Government of Canada to support LNG development in B.C.

I'll open up by saying that I'm not here to ask for money. I'm not here to debate the Indian Act. I'm not here for any of that, because.... Ultimately, what I'm after is independence for my band and the surrounding bands. The only way we can do that is by engaging in resource development for LNG, forestry and mining.

I'm here to tell you that the issues my band faced 10 years ago are non-existent today, because of our engagement. We were one of the few bands that went from being one of the poorest nations in B.C. to one of the wealthiest, including through land acquirement. We don't talk about poverty, welfare or unemployment insurance anymore. We don't even talk about the Indian Act.

We talk about what's next. We talk about the idea that since we're already fully engaged in the economy and society of B.C., what else can we do? This means independence at the band council level, which doesn't need Ottawa money anymore. It doesn't need the B.C. government anymore, right down to the individual, including the single mom and the guy who just got out of prison at the age of 55 and wants to stay out of prison—a good friend of mine.

Unfortunately, the word we're talking about here today—“reconciliation”—has been misused for the last 10 years for every single political issue under the sun, while ignoring the dreadful shame that is Canada's, meaning aboriginals who are stuck in prison or kids going to government care or poverty and the violence of poverty and ultimately suicide.

“Reconciliation” had a definition in the case law that was decided pursuant to section 35 of the Constitution. It was decided. This was all worked out, right up until the Haida court case of 2004. Now the word “reconciliation” has been misused to the point where nobody knows what it means anymore. It's been twisted around, and yet, time after time, in example after example, we see the results of what true reconciliation means, as dictated by the courts of B.C. in Canada. It's a shame. It's an absolute shame that it has come to this.

In your deliberations when you're talking about developing an act to talk about reconciliation, I ask that you look at the issues facing aboriginals all across Canada in terms of the unemployment rate and how it hasn't succeeded. Look as well at bands like mine, at how they've succeeded, and at how they're trying to make that spread across B.C. to neighbouring first nations communities.

There is reconciliation happening at the political and economic levels among first nations, because not every first nation has had the advantage of my first nation. It's all based on location—location, location, location. These are age-old differences that go back to way before white contact.

My message to you today is about what not to do. I wish you'd talk, in your deliberations, about the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, something I opposed when it first came to Canada over 10 years ago. I opposed it in B.C., but I voted for it, because I didn't want my party to be labelled as racist.

If you follow the lead of B.C., you will be doing a disservice not only to first nations in Canada but also to the general society, because that was an unrealistic political statement made by the B.C. government. They have not lived up to a single promise or commitment they made in UNDRIP—what they now call “DRIPA”.

To give you an idea of how unrealistic this is, they promised to consult every band in B.C. on every single piece of legislation that passed through the legislature. They also promised to align every single law in B.C. with UNDRIP. That is impossible. It's unrealistic, but they claimed they could do it. Now, their answers are.... Some of the legislation going through has not gone through a consultation process with first nations communities—the true rights and title holders, by the way. Instead, they went and talked to advocacy groups.

The other thing they did was provide notice of legislation to first nations—203 bands. That is not consultation, as dictated by the courts. They also conceded that legislation and some of the bills passed through the House did not have rights entitlement infringement questions involved with them, so they did not notify first nations.

That is not what they promised in the legislature. It was a political statement. They have not actually realized one commitment in UNDRIP. A lot of the DRIP Act in B.C. was redundant and meaningless.

By that I mean that every first nation has the right to save their language. We knew that. Every first nation has the right to save their culture. We knew that. We didn't need legislation to tell us that.

The redundancy I'm talking about is the idea that Canada is a lot further ahead than other nations around the world, including with section 35 of the Constitution. Canada is one of the few countries that recognized rights and included them in their constitutions. Yes, it took a long time to define that in the courts. One of the greatest things that happened was the court case that came down in 2004—the Haida court case that fully defined the duty of government and the responsibilities of first nations to respond, in a meaningful manner, when the Crown comes to consult on infringement issues.

It was working. From 2004 to 2017, it was working. The economy was going well with LNG, forestry and mining. First nations, more importantly, were getting involved and getting ahead. It didn't do anything to society. If anything, it strengthened our society. It strengthened B.C. In B.C., that has all now been put aside for the sake of politics. There are no drilling permits for LNG. They are actually going to shut down forestry, at opposition of first nations.

Those are my comments. Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Mr. Ellis. You are most welcome.

We will now proceed with the first round of questions. These will be six-minute rounds. We will begin with Mr. Zimmer.

Mr. Zimmer, you have the microphone.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I still want to call you “Chief”.

Chief Ross has become a good friend over the years, being a fellow British Columbian.

I'm glad you brought up reconciliation—what we're talking about today in this committee—in the way that you did. You talked about examples of how to do it and how not to do it.

I'll quote an article of yours from the past, just a couple years ago:

Foreign influence is nothing new, but what we are seeing today is a well-executed campaign financed by the likes of Tides Canada and the U.S.-based Rockefeller Foundation.

It goes on:

Caught in the middle are First Nations such as the Wet'suwet'en, whose people are being divided.... The other group that's caught in the middle are everyday British Columbians—including fellow Aboriginals who just want to get home, to work or to the hospital.

How does government support for radical NGOs and their agendas help reconciliation?

3:40 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

It doesn't.

When I got elected as a counsellor in 2003-2004, my chief counsellor had experiences with these types of organizations. We spent a lot of time trying to understand the relationships among NGOs of this nature, the governments of B.C. and Canada, and their agenda, which was all across B.C. and Canada. It was something we figured out pretty quickly: The agendas had nothing to do with first nations interests. They had their own agendas specific to each organization.

That partnership or relationship was actually severed between my band and those types of organizations. We were trying to resolve poverty, suicides and children going into government care. We finally decided to not welcome them into our territory, especially during the LNG development days. That was when we took a look at B.C. and Canada and started to see this happening all across Canada. We could see other first nations falling victim to this.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

I'm glad you referred to that, because I remember those days.

I'll say that even the definition.... We all want reconciliation, I believe. I really do believe that. I think most Canadians do. Oxford describes reconciliation as the restoration of friendly relations. Isn't that something we would all appreciate? Absolutely.

I toured around northern Canada as the northern affairs minister. I've spoken with many indigenous people—Inuit in Nunavut, Wet'suwet'en in northern B.C.—all across the north. Among all peoples, 80% to 85% are supportive of natural resource development as a key part of reconciliation, because it's prosperity for peoples. It means everybody is doing well. We can all do better.

You spoke to it a bit in the community of the Haisla. I want you to expand on that again. If this government decided to pursue reconciliation where it really makes change on the ground, it would help people in communities like the Haisla. Explain a bit again and extrapolate how good it could be if they were to truly pursue it.

3:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

It's not just first nations' success we're talking about that matters. Come to my committee and see the single mom who's off welfare or my friend who stayed out of prison.

When you talk about resource development at the first nations stage, you have to remember that revenues and benefits don't all go to the first nations. The government gets benefits. The government then turns around and uses that money for highways, hospitals and schools—even our paycheques as politicians. Everybody benefits from that, non-first nations and first nations alike.

The reconciliation we're talking about, I think, should be characterized as a political and legal relationship that has to be mended, because right now, first nations participate in every part of society I just mentioned. We love the hospitals, our cellphones and the highways. It's this political obstruction we have at the courts, which had been settled for the last 10 years, that we're now having to go back and revisit.

At the end of the day, true reconciliation at the economic level benefits everybody, and you're seeing it in action when we're talking about our daily lives. Everything we take for granted is what first nations actually want. They want to get a mortgage, which is happening right now, today. They want to go to the hospital. They want a doctor and a nurse. They want a new cellphone. It's this political definition of “reconciliation” that's holding us back.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

You have a minute and 20 seconds.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Okay, thank you.

You made this long trip out from B.C. We've talked about how long it takes to get out here, so we really appreciate you being here.

In my last short 60 seconds....

Here's your opportunity. If you're to give the government some advice, what would you ask them to do? They're pursuing the legislation, and that's why you're here today. What is one key thing you want to leave with them?

3:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

I'll tell you what I've been saying for the last five years: Do not use reconciliation as a tool to divide Canadians. That is not what aboriginals want.

You saw it when churches were being burned down all across Canada recently. There were a number of first nations people, including myself, who went out there and said, “Do not burn down churches. Do not provoke civil disobedience over this. There's a better way to do it.” They included aboriginals who went to residential schools. There are a small number of people who want to see divisiveness in our country.

It took me a while to realize that. I'm proud to be from British Columbia and I'm proud to be Canadian, because I've looked all across the world at places that don't have it as good as we do. We have to remember that. It is a good country, but we can't let politics divide us. Please don't let the word “reconciliation” further divide the conversation that should be happening, not only here but all across Canada.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Thank you, Chief.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

Before we go to the next questions, I'll give a reminder that what we're discussing in committee today is Bill C-29 specifically. It's a very specific bill. How can we make it better? Members are free to ask their questions if they wish, but it is only what will make Bill C-29 move forward, possibly with amendments, that is of concern to this committee.

With that, Mr. Battiste, you have six minutes.