Evidence of meeting #34 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was actually.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies
Ellis Ross  Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena
Clément Chartier  Ambassador, Manitoba Métis Federation

4:20 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

We're experiencing this in B.C. right now—the question of political leadership versus legal leadership. It's a question that I said the federal government and provincial governments should stay out of, but they should support some type of initiative and process for every first nation to figure this out.

Right now it's dividing many of our communities in B.C., including the Wet'suwet'en. It's not serving anybody, especially when their elected leadership actually supported some of the projects that their hereditary leadership is opposing. At the end of the day, it's the band members who are actually feeling the brunt of what's going on out there, the negative aspects of it.

I suggest that the provincial and federal governments actually create a process but not get involved beyond that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much, Mr. Weiler.

We'll now go to Madame Gill

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ross, you stated that the United Nations Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples was perhaps not the solution. You don't necessarily agree with the calls to action or with what the government hopes to do.

I imagine you have no amendments to recommend to the committee for Bill C‑29.

Am I right?

You can answer with a yes or no.

4:20 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

I didn't say that I didn't agree with Truth and Reconciliation. I said that I didn't really read it—

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

I understand.

4:20 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

—because we had a process in place already that was actually working.

I read case law principles because I knew that, really, ultimately, if I was going to move forward, I had to have a relationship with the provincial government, and the case law actually dictated the principles on how we were supposed to operate, and—

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

I'm sorry to interrupt you here, Mr. Ross.

It's hard for us to suggest amendments to the bill if you're unable to tell the committee whether a national reconciliation council could do a good job, since you are not familiar with the calls to action.

However, I'd like to come back to something that's been on my mind, but I don't have much time left.

According to you, you've said a lot of disturbing things. Personally, I'd like to hear what you have to say. In committee, we can hear everything. In fact, it's our duty to do so as elected officials.

I urge you to give us other examples or remind us of ones you gave earlier as to your positions or ideas that are not popular or that put a target on your back—those are your words, definitely not mine.

4:20 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

Economic reconciliation has got to be a big part of what we're talking about here in terms of the word “reconciliation”, but there are other pieces: the funding agreements—very paternalistic—and the politics of what first nations can do and can't do. In B.C., members of the sitting government actually stated that first nations should not be looking to LNG as part of their future and that they should look to examples of what they did in the Okanagan in terms of real estate development. That's the mentality that's in B.C., and yet you have examples of first nations advocating and supporting energy projects, forestry projects and mining projects.

I keep going back to it. I came from a life of poverty. I'm now witnessing the opposite. I'm witnessing a band council that doesn't need Ottawa money, that doesn't regard the Indian Act in any way. More importantly, I'm seeing the band members succeed. To me, that is the result of good reconciliation, because it benefits everybody in B.C. and not just my band members.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madam Idlout for two and a half minutes.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:] Thank you.

We all need to know our identity, our culture and our language. When that culture and the language were trying to get beaten out of us, it was not good, but now.... As indigenous peoples, we had existing laws among our own people and, towards reconciliation, I think we should also acknowledge that there were existing laws. As it is now, you are talking about laws that were brought by white people. Have you ever studied any indigenous laws?

[English]

4:25 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

Yes, I have, but they didn't relate to what we're going through today. Language and culture are important, but you can't force that on people. Everything that we tried to actually revive our language and culture in Kitamaat always failed—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I'm sorry. I'm going to stop you right there. Should we not be moving towards reconciliation and shouldn't we be using existing indigenous laws of our cultures to move towards reconciliation?

[English]

4:25 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

I don't know what your community is like, but the laws of my community didn't relate to what we are experiencing today. In fact, I talked to elders in my community about that issue. They said that they couldn't help me, because I was dealing with corporations, I was dealing with government and I was dealing with other first nations. By the way, with regard to those other first nations, we had a long historic record of warring with each other. We didn't like each other.

A lot of the laws that I was told about didn't relate to what I was actually trying to achieve.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

You have not yet answered my question. Don't you believe that laws that already existed among indigenous people should also be acknowledged and used as a means towards reconciliation?

[English]

4:25 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena

Ellis Ross

They should, without a doubt. Every culture, every society around the world has some form of process or custom related to reconciliation, but none of it really related to what I was doing. Really what I was trying to do was to find a solution for the poverty. We did have a reconciliation process for the first nations in our region, but that really involved allowing them to come into our community and take advantage of the economics that were in place then.

I don't know what your community is like, but my community did not have laws that were related to what I was doing.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

I would like to thank Mr. Ross for coming all the way to Ottawa to answer the committee's questions today. We very much appreciate having your insights on this very complex issue. Thank you once again for coming.

With that, we'll suspend briefly while we check the microphones for the next two panellists.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

We're back in session. Committee, thank you for your forbearance as we deal with these problems.

I'd like to welcome Ambassador Clément Chartier from the Manitoba Métis Federation. This is in the context of this committee, the indigenous and northern affairs committee, studying Bill C‑29 at committee stage.

Ambassador, we will ask you to make some opening remarks for up to five minutes, and then the committee members will have an opportunity to ask you questions.

With that, if you're ready, the microphone is yours for five minutes of introduction.

4:40 p.m.

Clément Chartier Ambassador, Manitoba Métis Federation

Thank you, honourable Chair.

Members of the committee, I am pleased to be here representing the MMF, the national government of the Red River Métis. I appear as the ambassador responsible for inter-nation and international relations, appointed as such by President Chartrand and the MMF cabinet.

On previous occasions, I have appeared as president of the Métis National Council, which we once belonged to. It was a position I held from October 2003 until the end of September last year, 2021.

The Manitoba Métis Federation formally withdrew its membership in the MNC organization on September 29, 2021. On July 6, 2021, the Manitoba Métis Federation executed the Manitoba Métis Self-Government Recognition and Implementation Agreement with Canada, copies of which I believe you have. By this agreement, the MMF's inherent right to self-government is recognized and affirmed. We are the only Métis nation government recognized as having such by the federal government since President Louis Riel brought the Métis nation into Confederation through the Manitoba Act, 1870. The agreement clearly states that the MMF represents the Red River Métis wherever they may live, whether inside or outside of Manitoba and, for that matter, whether inside or outside of Canada. In this connection, Red River Métis is synonymous with the historic Métis nation and its citizens.

The MMF general assembly in 2014 adopted a resolution that opened its citizenship application process to Red River Métis living outside of the geographic borders of the province of Manitoba. At its general assembly held this past weekend, the MMF adopted a resolution declaring the MMF to be the national government of the Red River Métis. Between June and September of this year, a beyond-borders task force, of which I was the lead, visited 14 cities within the homeland in western Canada and the northern United States as well as cities outside of the homeland, in British Columbia and the cities of Ottawa and Toronto, which are places to which a number of our citizens have relocated for employment and other purposes, although they are still registered citizens of the national government of the Red River Métis.

My government is prepared to support Bill C‑29 even though there is still unfinished business in connection with reconciliation and the Métis nation experience in day schools and residential schools, in particular in the Île-à-la-Crosse Residential School, which I attended for 10 years, followed by a year and a half at the Charlebois Residence in La Pas, Manitoba.

My government is pleased with the legislation enacted by the federal government over the past several years. This includes the legislation creating the two departments that have replaced the Department of Indian Affairs as well as legislation aimed at the implementation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. In particular, both the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Act and the Department of Indigenous Services Act, in their definition sections, state that “Indigenous governing body means a council, government or other entity that is authorized to act on behalf of an Indigenous group, community or people that holds rights recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.”

In their respective preambles, both state that “the Government of Canada is committed to achieving reconciliation with...the Métis...through renewed nation-to-nation, government-to-government...relationships based on affirmation and implementation of rights, respect, cooperation and partnership.”

The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act of 2011, in the preamble, refers to the “Métis Nation” and other indigenous peoples, which, “throughout [our] history...lived in the lands that are now [in] Canada, with their distinct identities, cultures and ways of life;” and says that “Canada rejects all forms of colonialism”.

We remain concerned, however, that the federal government has not kept pace with the reconciliation process, in particular the nation-to-nation, government-to-government and reconstituting of indigenous nations initiatives—in our case, the Métis nation.

With the establishment of the section 35 rights reconciliation tables for indigenous peoples in 2016, the federal government, in relation to the Métis nation, chose only to have four tables with only the then governing members of the Métis National Council, and refused to establish one with the Métis National Council itself, the then national body representing the Métis nation, and I underscore “the then body representing the Métis nation”. This has led to the further consolidation of the colonial boundaries established in 1905 with the creation of the Province of Saskatchewan and the Province of Alberta and the dismemberment of the historic Métis nation homeland in western Canada.

Nevertheless, today we are moving toward one nation, one people, which accords with the federal government's reconstituting indigenous nations initiatives—in our case, the historic Métis nation. In this connection, we are opposed to and will oppose any federal legislation that attempts to further divide or dismember our homeland and, in particular, legislation that purports to give provincial Métis organizations self-government recognition under section 35.

Not only are we, the Red River Métis, facing threats from within; we are also facing threats from without our nation, from outside of our nation, with hundreds of thousands of individuals of mixed ancestry in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces claiming to be Métis and perpetrating cultural and identity theft.

In order to prevent further injustice to the Métis nation, the MMF—the national government of the Red River Métis—must be included in the proposed council, unless the act is meant to deal only with indigenous organizations and not governments. This, however, cannot be the intent, as it would exclude the sole and legitimate government, the sole and legitimate representative of the historic Métis nation: the Red River Métis and its national government.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Ambassador.

We'll go to the first questions.

I believe it's Mr. Vidal for six minutes.

October 20th, 2022 / 4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador, for being here today and sharing your knowledge with us. We do appreciate that.

In your comments, you said that you would support Bill C-29.

My first question is a two-part question.

First, is that in the sense of the way it is, or are you looking for any changes or amendments that we might talk about in the next few minutes?

Second, maybe you can include in there reference to some comments that the Manitoba Métis Federation president, Mr. Chartrand, made back in June of 2022, which I would interpret as not supporting this legislation. He said:

I think Canada needs to catch up with their agreements that they’ve signed [and] commitments they’ve made.... I am looking forward to a call or a letter with minister Miller...whoever is going to be the lead [on this], to advise the Red River Métis of our involvement.”

You're saying you support it, but the president didn't seem to be supporting it back at the end of June. Was there a call or was there some interaction that has changed your federation's position on this piece of legislation?

4:50 p.m.

Ambassador, Manitoba Métis Federation

Clément Chartier

I may have misspoken. I think I said “is prepared”, but there are certain things that need to be met—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Okay.

4:50 p.m.

Ambassador, Manitoba Métis Federation

Clément Chartier

—before that happens. In particular, as I've stated....

Okay. First of all, then, we don't support it the way it is.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Sorry—will or won't?