Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the attendance by the minister.

I guess to keep this in perspective, and to some extent in answering Mr. Ste-Marie's earlier questions, we're playing catch-up here. There have been a lot of years and a lot of parties governing, and with respect to what we're dealing with today, it goes back decades, if not generations.

That said, as Mr. Vidal alluded to, it is a process that's going to take all of us. This is not partisan. This is not politics. This is business, and it's going to take all of us to come together not only as the whole of government but as the whole of Parliament, to advocate on the issues we're discussing today.

That said, the recommendations we're expecting to come out of this committee are going to do just that. We heard about a report from the Auditor General that came back and that unfortunately didn't look at a lot of the whole-of-government strategies that were put in place already, including public safety, emergency preparedness, infrastructure and, of course, ISC, in dealing with climate change, infrastructure, asset management and emergency preparedness, which are frankly part and parcel of and relevant overall to what we're discussing today with respect to emergency preparedness and management. That's not to mention the different partners beyond the federal government here in Ottawa: the provincial governments and, of course, the communities that are paramount and are affected by the decisions made by the partners, working with all government departments.

With that, my question for the minister is this. When you look at the report coming down to us from the Auditor General, one, what efforts, what directions and what strategies are being put in place, led by ISC—by you, Minister—with relevant departments that must participate, especially when we look at the different things I mentioned earlier—climate change, infrastructure, asset management, etc.—and two, what levels of government are you also working with to ensure that ultimately what we're discussing today is being dealt with?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll start at the beginning, because you're right: We're playing catch-up. In fact, in 2011, at the end of her mandate as Auditor General of Canada, Sheila Fraser summed up her impression of the government's actions, after 10 years of audits and related recommendations on first nations issues, with the word “unacceptable”.

Prevention and mitigation were never funded for first nations by the then Conservative government, but you're right: It was Liberal governments in the past as well. That has changed. In fact, our government has invested $259 million in new funding on mitigation and prevention efforts. This is all new. This is a new space, and it's an important space.

It should be embarrassing to all of us that we haven't done a better job as a treaty partner, as a partner in many other ways, with first nations indigenous people over decades of commitments. We should all be embarrassed by that, and we can all do better.

It means that when there is proposed new spending on not just this particular file but on reducing climate change, on climate adaptation and on things like innovation and infrastructure, how will we pay for the infrastructure gap, not just in first nations, but across this country? Tough times are coming, folks, and things are changing. I think we all see that in our own lives, so there are big questions ahead of every government in the world, really, but certainly our government, and that's what we're speaking about today in terms of that pivot.

You're right. Can we continue through the public safety approach that we currently have as climate disasters get bigger and bigger? Who do we need to have at the table? What kinds of partnerships do we need to have and can we learn something from first nations people, who have far vaster experience in this land than we do?

That's the challenge, colleagues. It is to change the way we think about this from a begrudging duty to an opportunity, and I look forward to taking that opportunity with first nations partners across this country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

Colleagues, please don't get up from your seats. I'm not going to suspend. I am just going to thank the minister for her testimony today in this first hour, and we're going to start right in on round number three.

With that, I would invite Mr. Dreeshen to take five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm honoured to be here at this committee. I spent a number of years on such a committee. As a matter of fact, when we speak about what happened back in 2013, I was at that table. Of course, we were in the process of going through truth and reconciliation and the development of all the things that were important to our indigenous friends.

I spent some time in the territories and had a chance to meet with quite a few business leaders. That's really where I want to take my comments. I've seen what goes on. I have seen the leadership that we have in our northern communities. I have said to so many people that if you want to have a really good CEO to run your companies, you would find a lot of them in any one of our northern territories.

When the minister was mentioning concerns about our colonialist past, somehow I feel we haven't got past that. Just last week, when we were dealing with natural resources, we had Calvin Helin in. One of the books he has penned is Dances with Dependency. I made sure that everyone who ever came into my office read that, just to make sure that we understood what our responsibility was.

I've listened to quite a few ministers over the last couple of days, and every one of them is saying that our only focus is how we are going to mitigate climate change. How are we going to stop the concerns that exist? We seem to forget that in a lot of our indigenous communities, the strength of those communities is their knowledge and ability to manage the resources that are there. They are looking for that opportunity to manage their resources. As Mr. Helin said, we seem be back into a position of eco-colonialism, where we have governments saying, “I think we know exactly what you need, and because of that, here's how we're going to dole out the options and the opportunities for you.”

How are we ever going to get to the stage where we really give them that opportunity to bring their expertise to the table?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Ms. Valerie Gideon, associate deputy minister.

Ms. Gideon, would you like to answer the question?

[Valerie Gideon, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon. Thank you very much.

One of the roles we have in the department is that we have been funding communities, including northern communities, by working closely with Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs on an environmental, climate change and health adaptation program. It's like a program that funds community-based knowledge-gathering, dialogue and planning with respect to climate change and health adaptation. That's one of the contributions we have made in the national adaptation strategy.

Some really interesting community-based research initiatives have been funded through this. I can send information to your office. It has existed for quite some time. It enables that exact thing whereby communities can then come forward and have a voice and present to governments what they need to inform their climate change and health adaptation.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. There are aboriginal communities that want to get involved in the oil and gas industry. They want to make sure the knowledge they have gained over decades of working in that industry is being advanced. They realize, because they, too, as I mentioned, are experts in the field, that what we have in Canada is the highest quality and highest level of environmentalism in the world. They are asking, as many are, why we aren't selling that technology around the world if we really want to make a difference.

I was in England for an OSCE meeting this summer. We were talking about food security, energy security and security because of what was happening in Ukraine. We are starting to see what the problems are when people go too far with their ecological plans. If we just continue saying to the indigenous people, “Well, we know what's best, and we're going to make sure you have all the money you need, as long as you follow the plans that we have,” I really think is a mistake.

That's why I wanted to make sure we understood it. When you say that you had a whole bunch of money there so they could follow this plan that you have, that's great, but that's not what they're all saying. I'm just wondering whether there is a recognition somewhere in the departments that it's the case.

[Valerie Gideon]

To make sure that I was clear in my previous answer, this is funding for communities to identify their own priorities and develop their own plans. This is not to respond to some federal plan.

We don't have a specific footprint in the territories in that space. However, I can tell you that in northern Ontario, for example, around the Ring of Fire, we have funded a number of projects at the federal level to support community development for communities to do their planning and identify their priorities. We've done that in a single window model through the strategic partnerships initiative that we have in our department, as well as with partners like the Federal Economic Development Agency for Northern Ontario, for example. The equivalent would be CanNor in the north.

We have an opportunity to work federally to support community development initiatives for communities that want to engage in terms of oil and gas, mining or these other larger, major projects.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

We'll go to Mr. Powlowski for five minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

In the western part of my riding of Thunder Bay—Rainy River, we had a major problem with flooding in the spring and the summer of this year. It's the Winnipeg river system, so it includes Lake of the Woods and Rainy Lake. A number of indigenous communities were affected, including Lac La Croix, Seine River and Couchiching.

I know Indigenous Services is responsible for emergency response and preparedness in those communities, but it would seem to me that a large part of the problem is the whole river system. You do something at one level of the river system and it potentially exacerbates the problem in another part of the river system.

Is Indigenous Services working with other branches of government, such as the ministry of the environment and the ministries of infrastructure and emergency preparedness? That is probably the most important one.

Are you working with them to create a more generalized response and to look at ways of mitigating the future risk of flooding? It affects both the indigenous and the non-indigenous communities.

[Valerie Gideon]

I'll say that we are very integrated in the broader federal planning and strategies with Public Safety, and with all the departments you've mentioned.

In terms of flood and fire mitigation and assessments, and all of those pieces, I'll ask Joanne if she has anything specific about the Winnipeg river system.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Thank you very much.

This is exactly why we are seeking to work further with the Ontario government and with Ontario first nations on a multilateral agreement. Currently, we have the bilateral service agreement with Ontario. We have evolved the system of response to include first nations as full and equal partners, but getting to a multilateral agreement would enable us to have more of a governance model around some of those discussions. There are some that exist already, but having a structure around it would certainly assist.

I will say, as the associate mentioned, that we bring our federal partners to that table. Ontario also brings a wide variety of departments to the table so that we can have those discussions with leadership and, as you say, look at the systems as a whole. Floods, fires and all sorts of weather events do not stop and start at the reserve border or even at the provincial border.

We're trying to make sure we have conversations with both Ontario and Manitoba, where those systems intersect and interrelate. We try to make sure those are happening on a regular basis as well.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

From my conversations with people, for example, who work in the Lake of the Woods and Rainy Lake water boards, which have federal and, I think, provincial members, it doesn't seem to me that as yet there has been an attempt to look at the system in its totality and what could be done in order to mitigate the chances of future flooding. Do you know...? Has that...?

I certainly wouldn't claim to know everything. Perhaps there has been some attempt to address the problem more globally. I don't expect you to have particular knowledge of this river system. I know you have a lot of other responsibilities.

If you don't know, could you look into it and let me know whether there has been any attempt to look at the whole system and what can be done to decrease the risk?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Yes, absolutely. I'm not familiar with the latest conversations, but we'll certainly look into that and get back to the committee.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I know some people in Thunder Bay—and this is the municipal people—have said that when we get large numbers of people relocated from other communities to Thunder Bay, there are increased costs for the municipality. I'm not sure how true that is, but that has been the allegation, that it increased work for police and increased work for ambulance and emergency services. Is there any money that comes to the municipalities to pay for these excess costs?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Yes, absolutely. When there are costs that are a direct impact of evacuations from first nations on reserve, we work with all partners and with the Government of Ontario to make sure those costs are covered.

[Valerie Gideon]

I will just add, though, that there is a strong desire by many first nations to be more involved in terms of hosting other communities during emergency events, instead of relying on municipalities, for reasons the committee heard and spoke about earlier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Powlowski.

I now give the floor to Mr. Ste‑Marie for two and a half minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the minister's responses and the Liberal Party's comments, there was a lot of talk about provincial responsibility. I would like to make a small comment in relation to that.

When we meet with people from the Atikamekw community of Manawan and other first nations, the issue of referral is systematically part of the problems that are raised. When the communities make a request to Ottawa, they are told that it is Quebec's responsibility; in Quebec City, they are told that it is Ottawa's responsibility. It's as if services to first nations were a hot potato that they were systematically trying to get rid of. It's up to the community to take the steps and provide the proof, whereas there should be more coordination on the part of the different governments to ensure that services are provided.

In connection with this, as stated earlier, the Auditor General recalls that emergency management is a shared responsibility between first nations, the provinces and the federal government. Roles and responsibilities are set out in agreements. Yet, in her report, the Auditor General specifically states that “Indigenous Services Canada did not have service agreements in all provinces with provincial governments or other service providers to ensure the delivery of emergency services in first nations communities”.

Is Indigenous Services Canada currently working on agreements for all first nations in all provinces and territories? If so, can you provide us with an expected date for all agreements to be completed?

[Valerie Gideon]

Currently, there are eight agreements, including in Quebec. We are looking at the renewal of these agreements. We are involving the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador and its commissions in the process. We are meeting with those people every month to have discussions on this.

It has to be understood that we have to rely on the provincial governments, in that they also have to identify this as a priority and work with us. It is possible to work together even in provinces where we don't have an agreement. For example, during hurricane Fiona, Prince Edward Island was the only Atlantic province with which we had a bilateral agreement, but that did not in any way preclude working with all the Atlantic provinces and first nations that were affected. In fact, it was quite the opposite: we were really very encouraged by the way things were going. In fact, Minister Hajdu called each of the first nations communities that had been affected, and they thanked her for following up. They told her that they were feeling good and that they would call her if they needed anything. We were in constant communication.

We hope to close the deals within the next few years, but we can't give you a specific date. We really need the commitment of our partners. This time we want to make sure that it is not only bilateral agreements, but also trilateral agreements. If we don't have an agreement with Saskatchewan, for example, it's because the first nations have told us that they don't agree that we should have a bilateral agreement with the province. So we're taking the time to see if it's possible to have a multilateral agreement that's going to allow first nations to have an important voice in the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Gideon.

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

We go to Ms. Idlout for two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I'll be talking about 8.29, about first nations. We're talking about first nations' building capacity, about preparing for emergency cases in the future. We understand that first nations need to prepare for building capacity. Why aren't we dealing with this specific item?

[Valerie Gideon]

In budget 2019 we were able to access new funding, $43.6 million over five years, to specifically invest in capacity enhancement. The minister mentioned in her speech that we have 196 emergency—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm just going to ask the question because it didn't translate well.

On page 7, in 8.29, it says, “Indigenous Services Canada did not use information about the risks faced by First Nations and the capacity of First Nations to respond to emergencies.”

Can you explain why the department didn't use information about the first nations' existing capacity?