Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 43 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We are gathered today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Before we begin, the clerk has brought to my attention that the deadline for amendments on Bill S-219, which was originally at 5 p.m. tomorrow night, has been moved to noon tomorrow, so that we give staff enough time to prepare any amendment package for clause-by-clause consideration on December 5.

Is there consent to change the deadline? I'm not seeing any objections. I will officially say that the deadline for amendments is noon tomorrow for Bill S-219.

Secondly, the witness lists for the study on indigenous languages, which is the next study that we will be undertaking, should be provided to the clerk by next Tuesday at noon, so that witnesses can be contacted for appearances. The first one will be on Monday, December 12.

I would now like to welcome the Minister of Indigenous Services, the Honourable Patty Hajdu. She is accompanied by the following people: Ms. Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Ms. Valerie Gideon, associate deputy minister; Ms. Joanne Wilkinson, senior assistant deputy minister, Regional Operations Sector; and Ms. Kenza El Bied, director general, Sector Operations Branch, Regional Operations Sector.

As usual, to ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules for all of us to follow.

Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services in English and French, and in the second hour in Inuktitut, are available for today's meeting. Please be patient with the interpretation. You all know it takes a bit of time.

For those in the video conference, the interpretation button is at the bottom of your screen. You can listen in English, French or, in the second hour, Inuktitut, if you so choose. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly re-established before we continue.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and if you're in the video conference, please click on your microphone icon to unmute yourself. Very importantly here, when you're speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for the benefit of the interpreters. I'll also remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

The minister has been invited to make an opening statement, which we will then follow up with questions from the members of the committee. The minister will be with us for the first hour, and her officials will be with us for the full two hours.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Your testimony will help inform our study into Arctic sovereignty, security, and the emergency preparedness of indigenous peoples.

Without further ado, Madam Minister, the floor is yours.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Hello, everyone.

Bonjour.

Kwe kwe.

I'm really looking forward to this conversation we're going to have about emergency management and the need to do better as a country in preparedness and adaptation.

With that, I would say that the conversation I had with the Auditor General was a very positive one. I thanked her for releasing her report on emergency management on reserve. It has indeed helped shine a light on what I think is a growing and critical issue for first nations.

I agreed with the report's recommendations, and certainly it highlights the increasing threat first nations communities face every day right now that is posed primarily by climate change. In the past six years we've seen record-breaking wildfire and flooding seasons. During my time as the Minister of Indigenous Services—and it's not that long—I've seen and met with people who have felt the full force of things like the B.C. atmospheric river event, the flooding in Manitoba and, of course, most recently, hurricane Fiona in the Atlantic.

I've become acutely aware that first nations are on the front lines of climate change, even more so as I am a northern Ontario member of Parliament and not unfamiliar with the kinds of heroic efforts that first nations communities and indeed all partners play in evacuating people and, for example, supporting people in forest fires. I receive regular updates from my team on natural hazards that are impacting indigenous communities and, indeed, on communities that on a day-to-day basis are struggling with emergency situations.

In each of all these instances, Indigenous Services Canada works alongside first nations partners to respond first to the emergency that presents such a threat to lives and infrastructure, but then, of course, in the eventual rebuilding. I would like to say that it is important to understand that it will always be the role of the federal government to be a strong and lead partner in responding to crises when they happen. First nations expect that kind of support, and I would like to thank the department for its incredible work during those crises.

The Auditor General's report also highlighted that we need to be better prepared for those extreme weather events, which I think is something that across this country we all know, and that we need to make sure as we work with first nations communities in particular that this preparedness—this planning, this investment—has to be done with the principles of equity, self-determination and, of course, honesty. First nations have the right to be equal and full partners in decisions that affect their own communities, and in emergency management planning and response.

We've been working with first nations and the provinces and territories to establish comprehensive emergency management service agreements, to increase the number of emergency management coordinators in first nations communities and to identify and invest in structural mitigation projects that can help communities become more resilient to potential hazards.

Out of these conversations, the emergency management assistance program has evolved to support first nations in emergency preparedness by providing capacity building, training and equipment. There are now 196 emergency management coordinators in first nations communities, helping to better prepare for and respond to emergency events in a culturally relevant way, and we work every day to increase those numbers.

We've also begun to do more work in structural mitigation. Since 2016, we've invested more than $121 million to support 103 structural mitigation projects. That will benefit 107 first nations communities that serve approximately 116,000 people. We need to do more of this, and we need to do it quickly.

First nations voices have to come first, though, when determining plans for their communities. Indeed, there have been efforts many times by a colonial government to determine for first nations how to prepare and respond in crises, and they inevitably fail. We know that integrating traditional knowledge and first nations-led solutions into emergency management planning is crucial, and there is a really good example of a success story.

Kashechewan First Nation's on-the-land initiative is a community-driven solution to protect its communities from the potential of flooding. Indigenous Services Canada supported this community-led solution that reflects their culture and that in turn enabled families to stay together—a really important point—foster stronger connections to the land and the community, and ensure their health, safety and well-being.

We've also made progress towards multilateral service agreements with first nations organizations and provinces. For example, the Government of Canada, the Province of British Columbia and the first nations leadership council have been working together through the current bilateral agreement and memorandum of understanding to develop a new emergency management multilateral agreement. What that means is including first nations leaders and organizations in the planning between provinces and the federal government so that their voices are heard and so they have far more input in matters that affect the day-to-day lives and indeed the safety and security of the people they represent. This will solidify first nations' roles and decisions affecting their communities. It also strengthens capacity to prepare, mitigate, respond to and recover from future climate-related emergencies.

First signed in 2018 and renewed in February was the collaborative emergency management agreement between the Tsilhqot'in nation government, the Government of Canada and the Government of British Columbia. This agreement was the first of its kind in Canada, and it works to build trust and strengthen relationships in the spirit of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Also, other government initiatives outlined a shared path for a more climate-resilient Canada through the national adaptation strategy. This strategy includes $1.6 billion in new federal funding commitments to help protect communities across the country, including indigenous communities.

There is a lot more to do. We know we need to act quickly on the recommendations in the Auditor General's report to sign agreements and to build structural mitigation efforts.

My job as minister is to press for service excellence and transformation as well as to seek the additional investments needed to support better emergency management services for first nations. I will continue to do that in partnership with indigenous people.

Meegwetch, thank you, merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now proceed with the first round of questions, each being six minutes.

We'll start with Mr. Vidal.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, everybody.

Minister, when did you first get and read the AG report?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would have to check my calendar, Mr. Vidal, but it was some weeks ago. Then I had a conversation with the Auditor General prior to her releasing the report.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

I had the opportunity to speak with the Auditor General when she appeared at public accounts last week and then at INAN earlier this week, so I've had some conversations with her through committee appearances.

There was a pretty extreme level of disappointment and frustration with everybody at the table at that point. In fact, the Auditor General, in her opening comments, said, “Many of the issues we are raising today in this audit were findings in our 2013 audit of emergency management on reserves. I’m frustrated that almost a decade later, there has been little to no improvement.”

I made the comment at other committees earlier that this is not an Ottawa bubble thing. In my community, this is a people on the ground thing that affects the quality of lives.

My next question is simply, what was your initial reaction when you read the report?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My initial reaction was, first of all, to appreciate the enormous challenge that the federal government, indeed all governments, are going to have as we pivot from responding to the climate crisis to the adaptation and preparedness piece.

Really, in terms of adaptation, what we're talking about is climate-resilient infrastructure, which will require a huge investment in terms of infrastructure expenditures.

I also felt that it was important to lean into that report, quite frankly, because this is obviously first nations people on the front lines and this affects all communities across Canada. I thought of this as a way to ensure that the people most affected at this particular time have a fulsome response from the government, and that's what I hope and have been trying.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

When you say you wanted to lean in, I'm going to go back to a couple of quotes of yours from the last couple of weeks. In the House of Commons last week, you said that Indigenous Services Canada is doing a great job and that the Auditor General said that. Then, in the Senate earlier this week, you said that, in fact, the Auditor General found that the department was extraordinarily responsive to helping communities in times of crisis.

I asked the Auditor General last week if those words were anywhere in the report or if you had some other information that we didn't get. She said they were not, so I guess my challenge is that we've been talking a lot this week about Bill C-29 and truth and reconciliation. If we're going to have reconciliation, we need to start with the truth. The truth needs to matter, or there is no trust.

You talked about trust in your comments as well. This is a relationship that all governments of the past have been challenged with, having trust in this relationship. We need to build trust if we're going to have true reconciliation.

Based on the comments you made in the House and in the Senate, my question is simply, how do you think the people who are affected by this report or the people on the ground who are experiencing these repeated disasters feel when they hear you publicly defending the department on these reports?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, through the chair.

First of all, I'll say that people who are listening to my comments are not choosing one particular part of an entire reflection. My reflection was on conversations with the department and, indeed, indigenous people about the responsiveness of the department to help in crisis management. I also, as I said, fully agree with the Auditor General's perspective that we need, as a federal government, to pivot towards prevention and adaptation. I have been very fulsome in my responses.

To take one part of a response and imply it is the only answer is, in fact, dishonest. I would say that, for me, it is important to acknowledge when good things are happening, in terms of all hands pitching in, in a time of crisis, but also—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Minister—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—to acknowledge that we need to make those incredible investments in infrastructure, adaptation and preparedness, which will help prevent some of those crisis responses.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

The same recommendations you're agreeing to this time were made in 2013.

With the time I have left, I want to talk specifically about the risk-based approach recommended in the report. The report found the department did not implement a risk-based approach to manage emergencies, as required under the Emergency Management Act. The Auditor General said this finding was identified in 2013 and again in internal audit reports of the department in 2013 and 2017. A risk-based approach identifies, analyzes and evaluates the risk in these communities, so the proper actions can be taken.

The challenge or frustration I have is that we need to acknowledge the concerns, or we can't fix the issues. If I misinterpreted your words, that's a fair argument, but when I hear those public comments it frustrates me, because somebody has to be accountable to make the changes we agreed to in these reports. Somebody has to own this.

With the short time we have left, can you share with the committee how you, as the minister, will hold the department—or somebody in the department—to account, in order to ensure we make the change and move to a risk-based approach from a proposal-based one?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The first thing we could all do is agree we need to make investments in mitigation and prevention efforts. In fact, your party—I think that includes you—voted against this in recent budget votes. It's very important that we understand that any kind of fiscal prudence must not come at the expense of investments we make for indigenous people. For too long, indigenous people have been waiting for those investments.

I would hope that given your comments, you will be an ally, and that when there are expenditures proposed for indigenous peoples, you will stand beside the government, agree to those expenditures, and push the government to spend more—which is opposite to the message I hear from the other side of the House.

This is our duty as a partner and colonial country: Right the wrongs we have inflicted on indigenous peoples since time immemorial.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

We'll now go to Mrs. Atwin for six minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Minister, for appearing today, and I thank your team as well.

I want to focus on the importance of involving indigenous voices and communities themselves in this process. The Auditor General testified last week on the importance of prioritizing and supporting first nation management plans as a key step in addressing the gaps that exist and acting with a more collaborative and preventative approach.

Can you explain to the committee why it's important to have first nations communities lead the way with their own approaches that work for them? If you've visited any communities where you might have learned some lessons about this, perhaps you could share that with us.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, through you, Mr. Chair.

Let's begin with the displacement of indigenous people, and why indigenous people are in such risky situations to begin with. In fact, it was a process of colonization that moved indigenous people from the most viable land to places where most people would not be able to survive, oftentimes. There are extreme examples of displacement. There are many people in flood plains, areas prone to forest fires and burning, and remote locations that are all increasingly threatened by climate change—including, by the way, in the north, as I'm sure your colleague, Ms. Idlout, could attest to. The warming of the climate in northern locations is increasingly jeopardizing communities. That's a product and result of colonization.

I will also say this: It isn't the colonizer who knows the solutions. We have to be there as a viable partner with the appropriate resources and mechanisms that might even include—that do include—the co-development of legislation. We have to be there as a listening partner in order to understand how best to support communities as they do this hard work themselves. It is a sad reality of colonization that the colonizer will never know what the answer is to decolonize. However, we have a responsibility to be there, as a partner, with enabling tools that will help communities do that work.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Minister.

You've spoken extensively with indigenous partners over the last year in your role. What have you learned specifically about what it's like for a community to be evacuated, and that experience of trauma? When these communities are in distress, how can the government and Canadians show compassion towards these communities that are facing such extremely difficult situations?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

This is such an important question. I've spoken to communities recently that have experienced this. I am a member of Parliament who comes from Thunder Bay—Superior North, and my colleague is also from northern Ontario. Many larger northern urban centres host people who are evacuated as a result, largely, of forest fires in our area, but sometimes flooding.

This is a very traumatic experience. People are sometimes staged in terms of the way they are removed from their community. For example, elders or moms and children might leave first, leaving capable men behind to help with the next stage. People leave their animals behind. There are often challenges with feeding animals. There are all the things you can imagine. Worrying about what's happening to the contents of your house and your day-to-day life in your own community is always very stressful.

Then, sadly—and this is extremely excruciating to listen to and watch as an ally and an advocate—people experience oftentimes extreme racism in the communities to which they are moved.

All of that results in an enormous amount of trauma. Sometimes people are out of their homes for weeks; sometimes it's for years, depending on the severity of the damage to the community.

Of course, all of that is extremely disruptive. The Indigenous Services team has trauma-informed counsellors. We also have some new programs that involve training indigenous first responders, mental health first responders, and coordinators and system navigators, which is starting to show some promise in terms of helping people. Nonetheless, even with supports it can be incredibly damaging for communities and for families and individuals.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much. With my remaining time I'll focus on the need for capacity building in communities.

How can your department, Indigenous Services Canada, best address the issue of the need to build capacity for emergency responses in communities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's an excellent question. Communities, of course, come in all different sizes and shapes and capacities. Some communities have enormous capacity to do this work on the ground. Other communities are managing many other kinds of emergencies on a daily basis.

The department works closely with communities of all different sizes and across regions to make sure they have the tools they need. It's a very real and live issue.

We have a new program that is available for first nations communities that are seeking to increase capacity. It was introduced in budget 2021 by my colleague, Minister Miller, to help support communities that are interested in increasing financial capacity, governance capacity. This is an ongoing piece of work, and it is our responsibility to do it.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

In my last 30 seconds I want to take a moment to celebrate the work that's being done in Indigenous Services Canada and how refreshing it is to hear a minister use words like “decolonizing”, not take the defensive approach, and understand that this is a whole-of-government issue and that it's going to take all of us.

Thank you so much for your remarks today.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you. Wela'lin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Atwin.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Ste‑Marie for six minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to my colleagues.

Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for being with us.

Ms. Atwin talked about celebrating the work of the department. Is that what you did when you saw the Auditor General's report?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

No—and thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize for speaking in English.

One day, I will speak in French.

I want to say that is not the spirit in which we received the Auditor General's report. We received it with a great deal of humility and a great deal of resolve that we would indeed accept all those recommendations and begin the hard work of implementing them, in particular those around helping first nations communities to access the kinds of financial and practical supports they need to do more fulsome preparedness and planning.