Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

The department is still not meeting its goals, so should we not be shifting those performance criteria?

[Daniel Quan-Watson]

It does change each and every year, depending on the circumstances. As things are completed, we exchange them. As we find that things need to be repeated, we sort of repeat and amplify those things.

However, many of the things we set out to do we did in fact do, so that's recognized in there as well. There are an awful lot of things we set out to do that we in fact accomplished over the year.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. I want to move back to the minister, because I know my time is short here.

Minister, unfortunately, we don't have the indigenous services minister here. It's the third-largest department, with 10% of overall government spending. It's actually almost doubled its spending in the last year. It's unfortunate that she wasn't able to be here.

I want to ask you about some of the information here in the estimates, specifically around what the Auditor General came out with a few weeks ago regarding funding for mitigation and adaptation and specifically indigenous-led projects that would help give indigenous communities a fighting chance to stay on their land in the event of extreme weather occurrences.

It says here in the estimates that there's about $12 million. Has that been spent? Has any been spent, and are you expecting more than just $12 million? If you're talking about bridges, dikes and culverts, that's barely enough to address the problem.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Are you speaking about my estimates or Minister Hajdu's estimates?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'm speaking about Minister Hajdu's, but given the fact that her numbers are so big—

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

But I'm here, so you're asking me the question.

Look, I had the honour of serving that department for two years during COVID, deploying extraordinary measures to keep people safe during a particularly difficult time in our history that we're still feeling the effects of.

What we've seen through that is that there are massive socio-economic gaps that need to be closed, so that increase is, in my mind, entirely justified. It's keeping people safe and alive. In the cases of flooding and fires, we know that indigenous communities are disproportionately exposed, partly because Canada placed them in swamps and areas in flood zones and has exposed them to it.

We can talk about climate change, which is increasing that vulnerability, but there's a role that Canada played, and we see that in some of the settlements that I have.... We've seen that with the flooding of Peguis, for example, just earlier this year.

We're not doing enough, and I think Minister Hajdu has acknowledged that. We will have to do even more if we don't start moving into mitigation projects, and clearly they are underfunding. Otherwise, we'll spend the money on the back end, as we've seen through the fire season and through the flood season.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Exactly. I think that's what the Auditor General pointed out.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

There are 112 infrastructure projects that would deal with adaptation and mitigation that are not being approved. In fact, it's a 6:1 savings. You can save six dollars for every dollar invested in adaptation and mitigation. That, again, goes to my question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale. Unless the minister wants to respond rapidly to what you've just said, the time is up.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'm not going to pretend to disagree with, perhaps, where you were going. I can't presume what the question was, but clearly we need to invest more in mitigation. It is clear as day, and it's only going to get worse if we can't tackle climate change in a mature way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

We'll now go to Ms. Atwin for six minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, to you and to your team for appearing today for this very important discussion.

I'd like to acknowledge that last night we had a really important take-note debate on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls in this country. There are so many issues we can focus on that can better support indigenous women and girls, but I think housing is specifically one that is just so important. It's a social determinant of health, as we know.

Minister, our government has previously noted that investments in first nation housing, including self-governing and modern treaty partners, play a role in closing the infrastructure gap and the socio-economic gap in indigenous communities by ensuring their needs are met.

Can you please speak to how the government ensures these projects address the needs of the communities and involves them in the process?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes. Often, infrastructure projects, as well-meaning as they are, just kind of drop on people, and the support and the capacity aren't there. What we do is as important as how we do it.

We know that with respect to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls the lack of housing is driving people into a precarious position of being vulnerable, and we know that it will continue to do so if we don't continue to tackle it through successive budgetary cycles.

That includes on-reserve housing that is adapted for women and children who are fleeing violence. That includes more housing generally, and it includes shelters and homes off reserve. We've often tended to silo our action in the quote-unquote on-reserve reality. It hasn't been sufficient, and it certainly hasn't represented what our ultimate responsibility is: to keep people safe in this country. Obviously what we've seen over the last few weeks is further evidence that as governments we continue to fail indigenous women and girls.

I was able to see this summer some really great investments by some of the modern treaty holders who are specifically targeting housing for women and girls who are fleeing violence in an on-reserve scenario. It's great to see it, because it's not just homes that they're building, which is important in and of itself, but homes adapted to people who need that safety and security and wraparound support. That violence is a legacy of our history in Canada, and it's ongoing.

The final report into murdered and missing indigenous women and girls outlined some substantive steps we need to keep following as Canadians, as the federal government, that don't touch necessarily the single moment where a traumatic tragedy occurs and all the steps leading up to the point where someone was put in that vulnerable position. We wish that it could have been solved in the snap of a finger, but we know that it can't.

We need to fix the ongoing tragedy of children in care and the overincarceration of indigenous women. It all ties into what the report has said, which is that we need to approach this in a systemic fashion, or else we will just continue patching it tragedy by tragedy.

I thank you for your presence last night, MP Atwin. I know that this is deep and profound for you, and I know you didn't have to be there, but I appreciate your remarks as well.

Thank you.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much for that response.

Another really impactful piece is supporting cultural spaces and the revitalization of languages.

We heard from indigenous partners and communities—and you did as well—that cultural spaces are critical to promoting those indigenous cultures and identities while fostering safe and secure communities for indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQI+ people.

Can you speak to how investments in cultural spaces help advance the calls for justice and the calls to action?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Call to justice 2.3 specifically called on the government to fund infrastructure projects for safe spaces for women and girls and 2SLGBTQI+ persons. Over the last year or so, we have been able to deploy about $100 million into that infrastructure. That covers over 65 projects. The envelope and the subscription to it were oversubscribed by a factor of nine. For the purposes of this response, whether they were eligible projects or ineligible projects, depending on the criteria, is relatively immaterial, but it shows the need to continue to invest in safe spaces.

What does that look like? Well, in some cases, it's a longhouse in Gwa'sala-'Nakwaxda'xw, which has some of the most impressive house posts that I've ever seen. I'm an east coaster, so maybe that isn't as impressive to MP Weiler, who has probably seen a lot more than I have. What it will do is honour a commitment we made 50 years ago to the community when it was displaced, and it was never honoured.

The final report underscored the vulnerability of people who are not able to reconnect with their culture, their ways and their language. This marvellous project, which will be about $6 million or $7 million, will allow communities to build their governance and have a safe space for those who are vulnerable in the community and ultimately keep them safe.

Sadly, I can't guarantee that if those projects had been in place years ago, they would have kept these people safe, but I know that they will keep people safe. I'm not so arrogant as to presume that the four women—we were horrified by the discoveries in what is a trash site—would have been affected by this. That's not the nature of my answer, but we do know that those investments need to occur as well in urban settings to keep people safe. That needs to continue, and that's work we'll do across all levels of government.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you so much, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Atwin. Six minutes go by quickly.

You now have the floor for six minutes, Mrs. Gill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank Minister Miller and the whole team with him today for answering our questions.

Mr. Miller, you just mentioned the urban settings issue. I wanted to draw your attention to that subject. Since we meet with the Indigenous communities, we know that many young and not so young people are drawn to the cities. There's really an ongoing population transfer from the communities and reserves to the urban areas. I think 45% or 50% of the Indigenous population in Quebec currently live in urban areas. The number may be as high as 80%.

I know you aren't the Minister of Indigenous Services any more, but I'm absolutely certain you have some knowledge of its budget.

What percentage of the budget can be used to support Indigenous people who live in urban areas, for housing, health services and so on, in short, for all their needs? I'm thinking of housing, for example.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you.

The percentages that you cited of the population living in urban areas or off reserve don't surprise me. They may be higher in certain parts of the country. Those numbers, in Quebec, don't surprise me.

Federal and provincial areas of jurisdiction are obviously a sensitive matter. Sometimes when we discuss Quebec, jurisdictional issues are fiercely debated on the backs of Indigenous peoples. However, I'm not claiming the federal government wouldn't have failed to meet its obligations absent this sensitive issue with Quebec because we see it all across the country.

As you very well know, the Canadian government's normal investments are made on the reserves, and it's making increasing numbers of investments. I'm referring, in particular, to targeted housing investments for Indigenous peoples worth many hundreds of millions of dollars. But I agree that's not enough.

Investments are being made in Val-d'Or and Montreal, for example. The organizations don't always have enough funding, and Quebec will also have to invest. I know it's doing that, but a very frank and open discussion of jurisdictional issues will be required, one that's still being conducted on the backs of Indigenous peoples both on and off reserve.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Indigenous friendship centres, for example, are requesting predictable, recurrent funding. As regards the plan, I understand that this is a shared jurisdiction.

In short, the needs are increasing. We know there's a real demographic boom going on in the communities, which is why I mentioned young people earlier.

If conventional funding isn't added for the indigenous friendship centres, shouldn't it be raised beyond current levels?

There's nothing in the estimates concerning this. I know you mentioned COVID‑19. The present situation is quite difficult. I don't want to mention inflation. That affects the entire population, especially people living in precarious conditions.

Wouldn't there be some openness here to adding something to assist these people who are living in urban areas?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes, there is some openness. I met with the same group as you today. I know those individuals very well. Among other things, they mentioned the extraordinary work they did during the COVID‑19 pandemic with the funding of Indigenous services to ensure that people stayed alive and healthy with vaccine and food distributions for seniors living in urban settings.

They did an outstanding job. At the same time, they also revealed something that we should have known: those needs are desperate.

A transition to a post-COVID‑19 era entails funding issues. I know that Minister Hajdu recently made an announcement on the subject in Vancouver. My parliamentary secretary, Mr. Battiste, announced the infrastructure investment at the friendship centre in Halifax. These are pivotal places for Indigenous people who choose to live in an urban setting.

There's always a discussion about funding to determine how much it takes. That requires the participation of the provinces, but the federal government has a duty not to be absent.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Yes, they told me there was really a shortfall.

Earlier I spoke with your colleague Minister Vandal about planning. We often revisit the issue of housing more generally speaking. I'm not talking about off-reserve housing. It's often said that the effort has been made, that advances are being made, but that no objective is being achieved.

Are we really trying to achieve one?

We can see that additional funding has been provided, although we don't really know exactly how it breaks down, but do we have a deadline? When will the housing issue be resolved, if that's even possible? Housing is currently in crisis, and we've said it many times.

Do you have an idea of what's been done to date? What percentage of the housing units has been built? I know it can be hard to assess that—there's an enormous shortfall—but do you have an idea? Is there a long-term plan? Are we doing this on an ad hoc basis, ultimately hoping that the money will be used to build new housing units?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That's a very appropriate question.

The objective is 2030, which will be here very soon, especially in the context of infrastructure that's being built under inflationary pressures.

I would note incidentally that we've made investments for the Cree nation in Nunavik. For them, we were able to provide a $200 million investment directly for housing in their community. These are record amounts and investments. However, I'm unaware of the percentages and exactly where it comes from. That has always been the issue between the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations, the Department of Northern Affairs and Indigenous Services Canada, as well as all those individuals who advocate for safe and affordable housing. There has always been this unfortunate tendency to throw figures around without knowing exactly where the money comes from.

We've recently made considerable progress with our partners, the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, or ITK, the Assembly of First Nations, for AFN, and directly with the communities, in determining what the infrastructure deficit is, particularly with regard to housing. We've had breakthroughs, and we've formed an idea of the amounts involved. And they are enormous.

I will leave it to the Minister of Indigenous Services to discuss that at greater length, but the government as a whole, regardless of political party, must be prepared to make successive investments, year after year, to bridge this enormous gulf between now and 2030. I make no secret of the fact that the challenge is enormous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

We will now go to Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have the floor for six minutes.