Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

The vast majority of this compensation is for the claim that we resolved.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Is it earmarked? Is a certain amount for legal fees or administrative fees, and then a certain amount goes to band members, or is it not that specific?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'll speak generally, because the communities decide how they distribute it. When they do these ratification votes, they will have a scheme and a proposal, and they'll deliver according to that. Obviously, people want to see results on the ground, so there's usually a distribution. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Then there is a reserve for final...through whatever trust mechanism they have for future investments.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

That maybe goes to my last question, but it begs a few more. Are any mechanisms put in place by these communities to monitor how these funds will be spent?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

They have their own governance systems, and we respect that.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

That brings up another question. We've had different discussions about different first nations communities in my area and about how, at times, the government is standoffish when it's being called upon to help, to assist and to govern, as is the job of the federal government, done in co-operation with the local first nation.

There's been a standoffish approach, even though they've been looking for help and looking for answers. We know personal examples, which I've brought to you, and the government has said, “Look, we're not going to get involved.”

This brings up a concern. From the community members' perspective, they want to see that this is done responsibly and that it will actually land in the places where it needs to land. I'm not getting any kind of new assurance that a mechanism is in place and that this will be done in such a way that a clear light is shone on how that money is going to be spent in the communities.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think you'll agree with me, being a representative of the government that was sued, that we shouldn't dictate the terms—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I agree.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

—of the compensation. We wouldn't do that with respect to any community that you represent.

We have to tread a very fine line. The Indian Act is very heavy-handed. People like me, in the past, have intervened too aggressively with devastating social repercussions. Sometimes it's been with evil intentions and sometimes with other intentions. That's the arena we're in.

The issue is really to trust communities—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I think all communities are asking for is some accountability over where the money is going. This money has been allocated and that should be accounted for, and that's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Excuse me for interrupting. There are about 10 seconds left.

Give a quick answer and then we'll go to Mr. Battiste.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I appreciate that. I think that's what the will of the community is. I hope there will be accountability in how this is done.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes. Everybody loves accountability.

I'm going to celebrate this with them, because it's long overdue. It's very important. Obviously you want to see results hit the ground.

I know we've had separate discussions on this. My role as Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and my prior roles in Indigenous Services Canada are roles I've had to play very judiciously, hoping that I'm not intervening in areas where we've been too heavy-handed.

I get your point, but I think at the outset we have to start trusting each other a little better, particularly when we're the ones being sued and we're the ones who haven't paid the bills.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

Mr. Battiste, you have five minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's important to reflect on where we are in this country in terms of indigenous issues.

I've been going to the Assembly of First Nations Special Chiefs Assembly gathering that's been happening in Ottawa for more than 20 years. First, it was as part of the Assembly of First Nations Youth Council and then as a proxy. I spent some time as a regional chief too.

I remember that during the whole time I was on the youth council and was a regional chief, there was only one minister for all indigenous issues, including all of the things that are ISC-related today, that are Crown-indigenous-related today and that are northern issues.

We've seen, over the past few years, a real dedication from our ministers in making themselves visible during these meetings with the Assembly of First Nations. We are seeing all the ministers take time to meet with the different caucuses. At one time, there was only one minister who had to handle this huge responsibility.

Minister Miller, one of the responsibilities under Crown-Indigenous Relations is reconciliation. I think Canadians really woke up to the realities of the need for reconciliation with the discovery of children's bodies in several places, including in Kamloops and Saskatchewan. We're in the process of getting to the truth of just how many children went missing during the time of the residential schools.

I'm wondering if you could talk to us a bit about the progress we're making on the reconciliation file, especially with the calls to action around the burial grounds. They're calls 72 to 76, I believe. Could you talk to us about some of the money we've put out from coast to coast to coast to get to the truth, help indigenous families and communities find closure and help them reconcile with the dark history of Canada?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, MP Battiste.

Something has just come to my attention. MP Idlout will appreciate hearing this, as indeed all members will. My understanding is that operations at the site in question—at the dump site—have been paused by the mayor and Premier Stefanson. This is good news. I believe this is what families have been asking for. That is positive news, and we'll see what happens next.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I hate to interrupt, Minister. I have limited time for that question.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't want to take too long with my answers, MP Battiste.

About 96 projects are under way across the country to search those former sites. I've had the opportunity over the last year or so to visit about 20 sites across the country. Each has unique stories and survivors who have suffered unspeakable horrors, some speaking for the first time, some still suffering in silence. That space we still have to recognize and honour.

The reality is that this will take years to figure out. Closure comes in many forms. It comes in being able to speak about it, or it comes in being able to trace a long-lost loved one. That means a lot of money and investment from the Government of Canada.

You tend to think that radar searches are where you see the financial pressure. That isn't the case. They're relatively cost-effective. The real work is working with survivors in communities, having community gatherings and having healing sessions. Obviously, there are going to be long-term infrastructure asks that we will have to work with communities to do. It isn't every community that wants to do a search. There are traditions and views that say you leave the space lying as it is and do not touch anything. There are others that differ wildly from that.

When you talk about a place that kids have been dragged to from different communities with different protocols, you can imagine that communities are reeling and trying to figure out what the best protocol is to engage people. That is time-intensive. It is also retraumatizing, but it goes to that process of accountability and closure that people are trying to figure out. Accountability may very well mean bringing someone to trial. Accountability may mean trying to find out where your loved one was lost so that you stop blaming someone else for their disappearance. There are specific examples of that that have been shared with me in confidence. Each of them is unique, and each of them has to be honoured and researched.

I would finally highlight—so I don't dig into your second question—that the funding of the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation for the next few years and the investment in a new building are so key to making sure that survivors have a focal point where they can go, consult and get documentation so they can get that information and perhaps closure. That is outside the control and purview of the federal government, which obviously they still have some healthy mistrust towards.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, earlier you said we would ideally resolve the Indigenous housing shortage in the communities by 2030. That's in eight years, but we could just as easily say it's tomorrow.

We've often reiterated the fact that, in Quebec alone, we would have to spend $3.9 billion to build 10,000 units. For Canada as a whole, we're talking about nearly $40 billion for 120,000 units. I would point out that this only represents the shortfall.

In Quebec, 225 units of this type are currently being built every year. If we did a calculation to give us an idea, we would have to build 1,250 units. We would have to multiply funding by a factor of five just to cover the shortfall, and I'm not even talking about inflation, additional costs, delays or additional units that we will need.

I'm speaking generally, but I know the issue is more complex than that. In light of this information, and even considering more details and subtleties, can we admit that we won't be able to meet the 2030 target despite the amounts that have been invested? We simply can't do it.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

There are obviously some challenges, and it may involve much larger amounts than those you've stated. In the past few years, we've tried to determine the exact size of the infrastructure shortfall, particularly in housing. It's enormous. It could well exceed $40 billion, regardless of inflation. We have a target for 2030, but it will be hard to meet. The problem won't be entirely solved in one budget cycle, but all governments, regardless of political affiliation, will have to invest in housing.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Does that mean your government may increase funding to offset the shortfall? We already know we can't do it. I wasn't talking about infrastructure generally; I was referring solely to housing based on the investments I outlined.

Will you increase funding by a factor of five this year? That's the amount that will be necessary or else the effects of underfunding will be cumulative.

Are you going to increase funding so we can meet the target?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I obviously can't discuss the next budget, but the reality is that we'll have to put our shoulder to the wheel.