Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 11th, 2022

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Definitely. That kind of leads me to my next question.

You mentioned all the different partners that are working together on this national economic strategy. On that strategy, do you have a few high-level points or recommendations that relate to the federal government that you'd like to share with this committee at this point?

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

A couple of recommendations popped in my mind right now. One is the idea of having a right of first refusal on the sale of any properties that the federal government might be selling, so that the indigenous peoples have the opportunity to purchase those properties and be part of.... That would open a door when we have those kinds of initiatives in place.

We talk about, as I mentioned, institutional development. I think we need our own institution on procurement. Indigenous peoples are already collaborating on a business plan for that so that we can take over a lot of those services within the government and have a certified database of indigenous businesses and help our businesses to be able to compete more effectively for a lot of those procurement opportunities.

We're talking about an education institute, so we could look at the leading practices across the country on education and helping our people to achieve higher education levels. We still have huge gaps between our people and mainstream Canadians in terms of education levels.

We're also talking about some of the recommendations that I already provided. We do need that investment toward economic reconciliation. There are over 100 calls to economic prosperity in this strategy.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you for that.

For my next question, I'd like to turn to Mr. Davis.

You highlighted three main barriers that we should be looking at here. The first one was looking at a solution really with federal Crown corporations being able to provide access to loans at a reasonable rate.

When you're thinking of this, are you thinking of existing Crown corporations or the creation of new ones? If it is an existing corporation, I'm wondering if you have identified some of those ones that we should be looking at.

[Clint Davis]

In particular, when I'm talking about access to capital, yes, it would be in the form of loans, but it would be specifically for equity.

I just wanted to make a really quick comment on access to capital. In the past, we've seen challenges whereby there are too many communities and development corporations. Even today, there are still challenges for individual indigenous entrepreneurs having access even to debt capital. That's why the AFIs that Dawn talked about earlier are such a fundamental part of the ecosystem to support indigenous business, but they do still have caps. That's a huge challenge.

I think there's a tremendous opportunity there, but not necessarily for the creation of a new Crown corporation. The Business Development Bank of Canada is a perfect example. It has provided a very robust indigenous banking unit, following along the lines of what you see with TD Bank, Bank of Montreal, RBC and CIBC. I think they've done a great job in terms of providing that debt capital to communities and development corporations and even taking on additional risk to support entrepreneurs.

Now, as we move into that bigger realm of having communities looking at participating in large-scale projects or even medium-scale projects, that kind of capital on the equity side is critical. This isn't a brand new thing. This is something that has actually happened in another jurisdiction, namely in Ontario through the Green Energy Act, which I thought was just an absolutely brilliant program. It was the initiative on the part of the Government of Ontario to ensure that it was going to have indigenous engagement with green energy projects. It provided a guarantee to enable financial institutions to lend equity for first nations and Métis to participate. I think something like that would be an incredible opportunity.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We're going to the next person.

Ms. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Kwe, utshimau Jourdain.

I'm pleased that all the participants here today can shed more light on how to remove barriers to first nations economic development.

Mr. Jourdain, I'm glad that you're here. I admire and appreciate you. I was pleased to hear you speak about Indigenous People Inc. You're an example of empowerment.

You spoke about the situation as it stood in 2014, when you arrived, and the situation as it stands now. You have very concrete and long‑term experience with economic development. We rarely hear from people who are really on the ground. We had ministers here earlier, of course. That said, you're adding to our discussion today.

You said that your speaking time was too short. I would have liked you to elaborate on the issues that concern the federal government. I'm thinking in particular of geographical remoteness, which is a reality for the Atikamekw people, but also for the communities in our area, on the north shore. You referred to the community of Uashat, in Sept‑Îles, which makes up 15% of the city's population. This figure keeps growing, obviously. We could also talk about the community of Chisasibi. This is also the case in Abitibi. In short, all communities are affected.

I'll let you talk about this issue, Mr. Jourdain.

[Adam Jourdain]

Tshinashkumitin, Mrs. Gill.

For any economic development project, whether it involves building a gas station, homes or buildings, we are at a disadvantage from the get‑go—that's for sure. The costs of transportation and materials are exponentially higher. From the outset, undertaking a project in the community of Wemotaci or Chisasibi, or on the north shore is more expensive than it would be in Montreal or Ottawa, say. That is the reality.

I also mentioned the red tape. We have to submit application after application, and it's a very long time before we here back from departments. It's a constant waiting game, so we miss out on incredible opportunities because we don't have all the tools we need. We need funding support and programs to operate properly and carry out construction projects, whether oriented towards economic development or housing.

At the end of the day, we are dependent on the federal apparatus. Is it possible to decentralize some of that authority? That is the question we should be asking.

Down payments are another factor. In our community, people practically live below the poverty line, even if they work for the council. Someone talked about housing earlier. It's impossible for people in Wemotaci to buy a home because the materials are unaffordable. People can't afford to build a $250,000 home.

We need to think about things differently, and indigenous communities have to be involved in the process, not just Ottawa. I always point to the fact that some indigenous communities are close to urban centres, while others are quite remote. They are two completely different worlds. When the time comes to hand out funding, that reality has to be understood and taken into account.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Tshinashkumitin, Mr. Jourdain.

You pointed to the remoteness of communities, down payments and red tape as barriers.

You also mentioned the mistrust financial institutions have towards you. Can you tell us more about the challenges you face on that front?

[Adam Jourdain]

As I explained earlier, for us, in Wemotaci, participation in the First Nations Fiscal Management Act has meant that we are no longer subject to the Indian Act in relation to financial matters. Financial institutions don't always recognize that, however, whether it be credit unions or banks. The First Nations Finance Authority, an indigenous body, is the only institution to recognize that fact and to grant loans.

It's not uncommon for us to have interest rates of 6%, 7% or 8%. It happens all the time to us, in Wemotaci, and it significantly hampers our economic development projects. It's not necessarily a barrier for projects that flow from band councils, but it is a major barrier for private contractors. As I told you, people live below the poverty line even when they work for the council. If they try to become contractors, obtaining a loan from a financial institution is very challenging. It's nearly impossible, so councils often have to co‑sign for people. It's a heavy administrative burden and it hinders our development.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Jourdain.

You said that the government needs to rethink its approach to economic development. Creating opportunities for contractors is also important, so they don't have to go through the band council. You made it clear that everything has to go through the band council currently and that the red tape is significant. It's high time to make the process more democratic, so to speak. There needs to be a way to support independent contractors, just as they are supported in non-indigenous communities. That can be done.

Do you or your corporation have any recommendations for us? Given what you've experienced or what you're experiencing now, what type of support do you need in the very near future?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You have roughly 30 seconds to answer, Mr. Jourdain.

[Adam Jourdain]

The federal government should provide programs tailored to the needs of each community, similar to what Quebec does with the Indigenous Initiatives Fund III, which earmarks funding specifically for Wemotaci.

Is that something the federal government could do for every community in Canada? It's worth exploring.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Tshinashkumitin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Jourdain and Mrs. Gill.

The next speaker is Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐃᓘᓐᓇᓯ ᖃᐃᒐᔅᓯ ᐅᕙᑦᑎᓐᓄ ᐅᓂᒃᑳᕆᐊᖅᑐᕐᓗᓯᓗ. ᑕᒪᔅᓯ ᑐᓴᕐᓂᕆᓵᖅᐸᓯ. ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᓐᓇᐅᑦᑎᐊᕐᓗᓯᒡᓗ ᐅᓂᒃᑲᐅᓯᕆᓵᖅᑕᔅᓯᓐᓂ. ᓄᓇᓯ ᑯᐊᕈᕇᓐᑯᓐᓄᑦ, ᑭᓕᓐᑦ-ᒧᑦ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᕋᒪ. ᑖᓐᓇ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔭᑦᑎᒍᑦ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᒐᒃᑭᑦ. ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᑦ ᐅᕝᕙᓘᓐᓃᑦ ᓇᒻᒥᓂᖁᑎᓖᑦ ᐃᓱᒪᒋᔭᐅᔭᕆᐊᖃᕐᒪᖔ ᐸᕐᓇᐃᕙᓪᓕᐊᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐅᕝᕙᓘᓐᓃᑦ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᖃᕋᓱᒃᐸᓪᓕᐊᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᑲᔪᓯᑎᑦᑎᕙᓪᓕᐊᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ. ᒪᕐᕉᖕᓂᑦ ᐊᔾᔨᒌᙱᑦᑐᓂᑦ, ᐱᖃᑖ ᓄᖑᓱᐃᑦᑐᖅ ᖃᐅᒻᒪᖅᖁᑏᑦ, ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐱᖃᑖ ᑐᓴᐅᒪᔪᓕᕆᔨᔾᔪᑏᑦ ᖁᒻᒧᐊᒃᑎᑦᑎᓯᒪᔪᓂᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐅᑭᐅᖅᑕᖅᑐᕐᒥᑦ ᐊᑐᖅᑕᐅᔭᕆᖃᓪᓗᐊᑕᖅᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐃᓛ ᐱᖁᑎᕐᔪᐊᑦ ᐱᑕᖃᐅᑦᑎᐊᖏᑉᐸᓪᓕᐊᓂᖏᓐᓂᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐊᕙᑎᑦᑎᓐᓂᑦ ᓴᐳᑦᑎᓇᓱᒃᐸᓪᓕᐊᑎᓪᓗᑕ, ᓇᓗᓇᐃᕆᔪᖕᓇᖅᐱᖅᖃᐃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᒪᕐᕉᒃ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᓵᖅᑕᑦᑎᓐᓂ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, all of you.

Thank you for coming here to speak to us about your program. It is very helpful to know more about your organization.

I will ask Nunasi Corporation, to your knowledge, what indigenous-led initiatives or businesses should be considered and included in the planning, servicing and delivery of renewable energy projects in the north, which is very critical for a green transition? We need clean energy in the north because we lack infrastructure. Can you talk about renewable energy projects in the north?

[Clint Davis]

I'm sorry, Ms. Idlout. I didn't get the English translation on that for the question.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐃᓄᒃᑎᑐᑦ ᐅᖃᕆᐊᒃᑲᓐᓂᕋᓱᖕᓂᐊᖅᐳᖓ. ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑑᓕᖅᑎᑕ ᐅᕙᓪᓕᐊᕙ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I will try again in Inuktitut.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mr. Davis, did you get the question from Ms. Idlout?

[Clint Davis]

No, I'm sorry. I'm not tapping into the translation. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Okay.

Ms. Idlout, we'll go over to you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Okay, I'll ask my question in English.

I have one question with two different topic areas. One will be renewable energy and the other one will be telecommunications infrastructure development.

In these two areas, to your knowledge, what indigenous-led initiatives or businesses should be considered and included in planning, servicing and delivery in the north based on the critical need to transition to green energy?

[Clint Davis]

Nakurmiik for the question. I apologize on the missed interpretation there, and I appreciate the follow-up.

Very quickly, I think that, when we talk about the transition to green that is happening within this country, the reality of Nunavut and the reality of Inuit Nunangat are probably not necessarily fully considered. We have, obviously, very different construction time frames, very different climate realities, very different geography and so on, but that doesn't mean to say that we should not be given that opportunity to participate in renewable energy. Some of that activity has been taking place right now.

The Government of Canada has provided some reasonably decent approaches through NRCan on what to do in terms of some funding support for capacity building and so on to try to support the development of green energy. In many cases like this, Ms. Idlout, what you will see is a rash of applications coming into a program and all of us trying to fit within a certain deadline, again not necessarily considering the reality of the north.

I think what would be incredible would be to see the federal government pull together its current dollars around green energy as it pertains to the north and have a fund that has a high level of flexibility that would enable indigenous organizations and Inuit organizations to be able to apply. The fund should have a much longer time frame to ensure that those dollars go to fundamental projects that can really be successful.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you so much.

I have a follow-up question for all three witnesses. I am wondering if you're all aware of the Canada Infrastructure Bank Act. This morning I was at a press release with my fellow MP Niki Ashton , who is proposing amendments to that act. I wonder if you could just quickly say yes or no to that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Perhaps we could start with Nunasi.