Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, we talked about the Auditor General's audit of the elementary and secondary education program—specifically, the relevance and accuracy of the data and the sharing of those data with indigenous communities. We also talked about the methodology, which doesn't guarantee that the data will be relevant or accurate, but at least the department confirmed that changes are being made to improve things.

I'd like to hear your views on something else that was raised, and it isn't necessarily tied to methodology. The audit revealed that the department did not report results for many measures. We are talking about a lot—17 out of 23.

Why were there no results for those measures?

Since then, have you managed to report results for all the measures?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would have to have more specific indicators. I don't have the report in front of me. Can you draw out a couple of examples for me?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

It's about more than just the actual examples. I'll give you the figures, plain and simple.

In its audit of the on‑reserve elementary and secondary education program, the Office of the Auditor General noted that the department should have provided results for all 23 measures but that it didn't report results for 17 of them. In other words, the department didn't report on roughly 75% of the measures.

First of all, is there a reason why the department wasn't able to provide those results or couldn't?

Second, what efforts were made to report as many results as possible for each measure?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's where I think this new cohort-based high school graduation rate methodology is going to improve the department's ability to both gather data and measure the difference in high school graduation rates, for example. That is part of the departmental report for 2022-23 and the targets we were talking about earlier that will be available this fall.

This is really about working with first nations in a respectful way, by the way, to leverage data and support discussions with them about how to collect those data in a way that's logical and respectful.

I would assume, when you see the kind of underfunding that existed prior to 2015, that educators' days—and those of you who have been educators in the room know this—are busy enough without spending another couple of hours collecting and organizing data. Now, with comparable funding, there is more capacity for education systems to be able to do that collection of data.

With things like the first nations statistical institute—I may have the name wrong but it's the institute we're funding around statistics and data—I think there's going to be an ability for first nations to leverage some of those investments in the pan-Canadian institutions that serve first nations.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair, but the interpretation stopped a while ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Just hold on a moment. We have an interpretation problem of translation into French. Could we check on that, please?

Minister, could you recap a little?

Go ahead, Minister, when you're ready.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll just say that not only are we changing the methodology in the way we assess data coming out of first nations, but we're also supporting first nations in the area of how they will share data and their data sovereignty. As you can imagine, data has been used in some ways to make excuses for the poor investments we've seen over decades in first nations education.

First nations people want data sovereignty, and they want the ability to weigh in on how that data is used and where it's used. We work respectfully with first nations communities on that. The approach we're taking is to work with first nations on how best to do this in a respectful way and a way that respects their own individual capacities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Ms. Idlout, if you would like, you can conclude with two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐋᒻ ᐊᒥᓱᓂᒃ ᐊᐱᖅᑯᑎᑦᓴᖃᕋᓗᐊᖅᑐᖓ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐊᐱᕆᑐᐃᓐᓇᕐᓂᐊᖅ....ᐃᓚ ᐊᑕᐅᓯᕐᒥ ᐊᐱᕆᓇᓱᑐᐃᓐᓇᕐᓂᐊᖅᑐᖓ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐱᒋᐊᕈᑎᒋᓗᒍ, ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐋᒻ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᖏᑦ ᐃᓄᖁᑎᖏᑦ ᐊᒃᓱᕈᓐᓇᖅᑐᒃᑰᓛᖑᒻᒪᑕ ᐋᒻ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕆᐊᑦᓯᐊᐸᓐᖏᑦᑐᑦ ᐊᒥᓲᓪᓗᑎᒃ ᐋ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᐸᖕᒥᐅᖅᑐᑦ ᐋ ᓄᑕᐅᓐᖏᑦᑐᐊᓗᓐᓂᒃ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᖃᖅᑐᐃᑦ ᐅᖁᖅᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕆᐊᕈᒪᒐᓗᐊᖅᓱᑎᒃ ᓴᐱᕐᓇᓲᖑᒻᒪᑕ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᒻᒨᕋᓗᐊᕌᒐᒥᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᖏᑦ ᐸᖕᒥᐅᖅᑐᖅᑕᐅᖅ ᓄᑕᐅᓐ− ᖏᑦᑐᐊᓗᐃᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᒃᓱᕉᑎᖃᕈᒪᔫᒐᓗᐊᑦ ᓇᐅᖏᓛᒃ ᐊᒥᓱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓗᓐᓂᒃ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑎᖃᓲᖑᒻᒪᑕ ᐃᓱᓕᒃᓯᓇᓱᒋᐊᒃᓴᖅ ᓴᐱᕐᓇᑲᓴᒻᒪᕆᑦᑐᖅ ᐃᓚᒋᔭᖏᑦ ᐋᕐᓂᐊᖃᖅᑐᑦ ᓂᓐᖓᐅᒪᔪᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕆᐊᖅᑎ− ᑕᐅᓯᒪᓂᑯᐃᑦ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᒃᑐᐊᓂᖃᖅᑎᒡᓗᒋᑦ ᓱᓕ ᒪᒃᑯᑦᑐᓄᑦ ᕿᑐᕐᖓᑦᑎᓐᓄᑦ ᐃᕐᖑᑕᑦᑎᓐᓄᑦ ᑐᓂᐅᖅ− ᑲᖅᐸᓪᓕᐊᒐᑦᑎᒍ ᓱᓕ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑐᓕᕆᓂᖅ ᐊᖅᑯᑎᒋᖃᑕᐅᒋᐊᖃᒻᒪᕋᑦᑎᒍ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅ− ᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᖁᕐᕙᖅᐹᓪᓕᓐᓂᐊᕈᑎᒃ ᖁᕐᕙᖅᑎᒋᐊᖃᒻᒪᕆᒃᑲᑦᑎᒍ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᖃᖅᑎᑕᐅᒃᑲᓐᓂᕆᐊᖃᒻᒪᕆᑦᑐᑦ ᐅᐊᖏᓛᒃ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᓪᓚᕆᑦᑐᖓ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐊᐱᕆ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᐅᑉ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᔪᖓ, ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕖᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ ᐃᓗᐊᓃᑦᑐᑦ ᐋ ᐸᖕᒥᐅᖅᑐᑦ ᓄᑕᐅᓐᖏᓗᐊᖅᑐᑦ ᐊᒥᓲᓗᐊᕐᒪᑕ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔪᒍᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᒃᑯᑦ ᐊᐅᓚᑦᓯᔭᕆᐊᓕᐅᒐᓗᐊᑦ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᒃᑯᖏᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᕐᓂᒃ ᑐᓂᔭᐅᓗᐊᑦᓯᐊᔾᔮ− ᖏᒃᑯᑎᒃ ᓴᖅᑮᔪᓐᓇᔾᔮᖏᒻᒪᑕ ᐃᓕᒃᓯᓐᓃᓐᖔᕆᐊᖃᖅᑐᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ, ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃ− ᑯᓐᓃᖔᖅᑐᑦ ᐊᖏᓪᓕᑲᓐᓂᕆᐊᖃᒻᒪᕆᒃᑲᓗᐊᕐᒪᑕ ᐊᔭᐅᖅᑐᒻᒪᕆᒃᑲᓗᐊᖅᐸᒃᓯ ᖃᓄᖅᑑᖁᓪᓗᓯ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅ− ᑐᓕᕆᓂᐅᑉ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕖᑦ ᐊᒻ....ᐊᒥᓱᕐᖑᕆᐊᖅᑎᒃᑲᓐᓂᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᒃᑯᓐᓄᑦ ᑐᓂᔭᐅ− ᓂᐊᖅᑐᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓄᖁᑎᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᒻᒪᕆᓐᓂᐊᕈᑎᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕌᓂᖅᐸᓪᓕᐊᔪᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᕐᖑᒃᑲᓂᖅᐹᓪ− ᓕᕐᓂᐊᕐᒪᑕ. ᐊᐱᕆᕗᖓ ᐋ ᖃᓄᑎᒋ ᐱᕈᖅ...ᐊᒥᓱᕐᖑᖅᑎᑦᓯᑲᓐᓂᕐᓂᐊᖅᐱᓯ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑐᓕᕆᓂᐅᑉ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒧᑦ ᑐᕌᖓᔪᒥᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I have many questions, but I will have to stick to one question. In Nunavut, the schools and the people have the hardest time with resources. Many people are truants and not attending, because they live in overcrowded housing. They live in very old, decrepit, and mould-infested homes. Even if they wanted to go to school, there are things that prevent them from going to school regularly.

Once they get to school, the schools are also very old institutions and need repairs. Resources prevent us from attending. Infrastructure needs repairs. Residential school survivors have a lot of pain. There's a lot of intergenerational trauma that's been passed on from residential schools. I believe it is very important that we keep that in mind and concentrate on the trauma from residential schools and intergenerational trauma.

I will ask you about the learning institutions. In Nunavut, our institutions are overcrowded, with very old buildings. We know that the Nunavut government should be managing and operating those, but if it's not going to get enough money through bilateral agreements from the federal government, those issues will never be addressed. It is critically important that we increase government funding to the territorial government institutions. Bilateral funding to territorial governments has to be increased drastically. People who graduate will increase in number once the infrastructure is okay.

I have many questions about schools in Nunavut, but I have to limit it to this one.

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I don't know how much time I have, Mr. Chair, but I'll take a stab at first of all answering the meat of the question. There is so much trauma, and this is true of Inuit children, but not only Inuit children. There is residential school trauma. The infliction of trauma, as a result of the experience of colonization, is in the DNA of indigenous people in this country. It for sure impacts the capacity of people to learn, and it for sure impacts their capacity to stay and focus in school.

You're absolutely right. It intersects with the shortage of housing and with the many other ways indigenous people experience poverty in communities all across this country. That's why the work we're doing to close the infrastructure gap by 2030, which is an ambitious goal, is so critically important.

You're right: If you're living in a household of 14 people, what that means in practice, as some elders and parents have told me, is that people sleep in shifts. You take turns sleeping, because there isn't space for everyone to have a normal night. That is obviously not compatible with learning or education.

I really hope, when we see budget 2023, we don't see a repeat of what we saw in budgets 2021 and 2022, which was the Conservative Party, in particular, voting against the investments in indigenous peoples and voting against the investments in education. The sum of $1.2 billion in 2021 was invested in education. It was voted against. There was $6 billion for infrastructure, including shovel-ready infrastructure projects that were ready to go. Operation and maintenance costs were voted against by Conservatives. There was $107.9 million for elementary and secondary education—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm so sorry. I need to interrupt you because I don't know if my question was interpreted.

My question was this. Can you commit to investing more in education, so that there are improved and renovated schools and they are getting the expansions that were promised? I've been to Whale Cove, Arviat and Coral Harbour. All of them have been promised extensions, because there is overcrowding and there are not enough classrooms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Ms. Idlout, just finish your question, and we'll have to have a quick answer. We're past our time.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Will there be an increase in investments for schools in Nunavut?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout. My apologies for not answering that at the front. I will say that that's the point behind the tripartite table, to work with the Government of Nunavut and the Government of Canada, together with Inuit leaders, to make sure we do everything together to ensure that people have schools that are safe and that are going to work for the education of Inuit children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Minister Hajdu, for appearing before us today as we look at the issue of education for indigenous people. Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Wilson, for also being on hand.

We will suspend briefly, committee, and prepare for our second panel.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We are resuming.

We would like to welcome our second panel. We have with us from Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Ms. Angela Bate, who is director general, and Dionne Savill, director general, implementation branch, both by video conference today.

With us in the room we have, from the Department of Indigenous Services, Rory O'Connor, director general, regional infrastructure delivery branch, and Jonathan Allen, who is a director with the department.

Welcome to all of you. I understand there are no opening statements, but that you are here to answer our questions. We'll launch into that right away.

We'll start with six minutes with Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Maybe just for clarity on the witnesses again, because I know there's an update to the agenda this morning.... The member from Yukon.... Who does that person represent again, just for clarity?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

These are all people from federal departments, two from Crown-Indigenous Relations and two from ISC.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Okay. Thanks for clarifying, Mr. Chair.

I'll start off with, I have some questions, as a former teacher myself. I taught high school for seven years. I was a bit unique, I guess, in my education. I became a tradesman. I was a Red Seal carpenter; I am a Red Seal carpenter. Then I went and got two degrees after that. I have seen both sides of the fence, with a trades education and also university. I have a heart for trades training—let me put it that way.

I'll dig into this article from Nunavut News. It was dated June 26, 2021.

Statistics Canada reported as of 2016 that 41 per cent of Inuit had attained their high school diploma. Among Inuit living within Inuit Nunangat, 28.2 per cent reported a post-secondary qualification compared with Inuit living outside Inuit Nunangat at 53.3 per cent.

“It is working, but not to its fullest capacity,” says Peesee Pitsiulak, Nunavut Arctic College's Nunatta Campus dean and a member of the Arctic and Northern Policy Framework's Task Force on Northern Post-Secondary Education.

I'll start off with that. It's not a great stat. One thing I always found as a bit of joy in being a teacher and a coach was seeing kids in my class succeed and go off. They'd come to me later on and say, “Mr. Zimmer, I'm a welder now,” or, “I have my degree.” I couldn't be happier for students who have achieved more success after they've been in my class.

There are still problems. I'll quote an article. The article is “The Insufficiency of High School Completion Rates to Redress Educational Inequities among Indigenous Students”, and I'll quote a paragraph in it that I think is telling.

Notably absent from these plans is consultation with First Nations communities regarding their perspectives on potential improvements and the accessibility of the system. Since we understand that on-reserve First Nations students have the lowest graduation rates, perhaps engaging with these communities on collaborative strategies through the Accountability Framework could drastically increase learners' success in the education system and reduce pervasive disparity.

It continues:

For example, the increases in the graduation rates to near parity for Indigenous learners in the northern British Columbia school district previously referenced was built upon strong relationships and collaboration with First Nations....

I had this question for the minister, but I understand that she could only be here for an hour. We can talk about this all day long. We could have meetings for 10 years and 20 years and still have more meetings and more meetings. We could throw funding at the problem, but unless we're consulting with first nations communities to ask what we need to do to fix this, then we're going nowhere. We're spinning in circles and just spending a lot more money, not getting anywhere.

The sad part of it is that the kids are the ones who lose. They're the ones who end up at a lower graduation rate and with less of an opportunity going forward.

What I want to do is ask whoever is part of the department this: What are you doing to consult with first nations about how to increase these rates—graduation rates and success rates—among indigenous students in indigenous communities?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

If your question is for ISC, it's for these two gentlemen in the room.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Sure—or the ones online, too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

They are from Crown-Indigenous Relations. Could you point to one of the departments, at least?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'd look for an answer from any of them. If they can give me.... If they're working on this, I'd like to hear it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mr. Allen, go ahead.

[Jonathan Allen, Director, Department of Indigenous Services]

In the context of first nations' engagement in co-development for elementary and secondary education, that was a fundamental tenet of how education transformation for secondary was undertaken, which led to the implementation of a new funding approach in 2019. In the—