Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 27th, 2023

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Okay. I was going to say that I'm new at this committee and I forgot to start my clock, so I had no idea where I was.

I would have loved to hear from Dr. Louis and Monsieur Bacon on the same topic, but I'll leave it at that.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mr. Aldag.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses before us today.

A little earlier, we talked about education throughout the country.

I would like to redirect our attention and ask Mr. Bacon a question. In his testimony, on the one hand, he talked about his own experience. He went through the education system and succeeded quite well. On the other hand, he told us about his professional experience, which is very rich. He went from grade school all the way to university, be it the Centre des Premières Nations Nikanite, the Université du Québec à Montréal, UQAM, or in his own community of Mashteuiatsh.

If he is willing, I would like to hear him on everything we need to make sure education is made available and accessible, that it meets the needs of students and communities so they want to invest in their studies, get an education and succeed. Success is a notion that differs for every individual, but let's define it as meaning a sense of growth and development.

I give you the floor, Mr. Bacon.

[Marco Bacon]

I talk a lot. Where I was trying to get to earlier, with the journey between preschool and university levels, is that there is something fundamental for Indigenous students to succeed: we have to know their profile. Knowing a student's profile is vital, given all the difficulties this person experienced during their time in primary and secondary school. We don't have a lot of specialists who can intervene in our communities. We lack people to support students at both the primary and secondary school level. And yet, this follows them all the way to university.

Sometimes, perseverance and academic achievement depend a great deal on educational and psychosocial support. In fact, students arrive in an urban area, which means they’re disconnected from their community, a little lost, without cultural reference points.

Universities created centres to offer them assistance, be it for learning or psychosocial support, but it has limits. Indeed, even if we intervene within the university, students often face problems outside its walls. That means it's out of our scope. We can't offer all our services outside the university. That means it is important for us to create partnerships so that students can get support in the urban environment outside the university.

Success or perseverance is often undermined by an incident at home. It can be domestic violence or struggling to put food on the table, for example. There are many factors. I could name several. I think the most important thing is to work on establishing bridges between environments. We see all kinds of situations. I'm telling you that we have to take the student's profile into account. I don't know if it works the same way in provinces other than Quebec, but students who come to university in Quebec have a standard profile, meaning they went through CEGEP before going to university, or they have a profile that makes them eligible based on their work experience, also known as a mature student.

It is not the same thing for students who didn't go through CEGEP. They come directly to university after finishing their last year of high school. Their experience is often very inadequate to get through university. That's why it's important for specialists to support students in various ways, such as teaching them methodology or how to use information technology. It affects learning, but there are also situations where students experience isolation in the urban settings they find themselves in. They need people to intervene and support them, so that they persevere to the end of their academic journey.

This support is a very important point, especially because there is a limit we cannot go beyond at university. There needs to be a real thought process and an attempt to establish partnerships with existing organizations, such as Indigenous friendship centres. Usually, we can find one of these centres in urban areas. They could form a partnership. Students could get support through Indigenous friendship centres, but when they're at university, they could get support from people tasked with helping First Nations.

There's some thinking to do about this. It is vital for Indigenous students' perseverance and success.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill and Mr. Bacon.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut]

[English]

Just very quickly, I wanted to welcome your using my language. Normally I speak Inuktitut with an interpreter. You get the pleasure of listening to me in English today because of the wonderful work that Mr. Kevin Lewis is doing.

I just have one question, and I'm going to leave it to the chair to time the witnesses' responses, because I would love it if each of them answered my one question.

It is based on what Kevin said in response to a Conservative question.

As indigenous peoples, we're all very quick to identify what our gaps are, and I think what we also need to learn to do is to identify what the gaps are federally and provincially. I wonder if each of you could answer what you see the gaps are for indigenous students' success federally and provincially. For example, if you're saying there aren't enough indigenous people becoming accountants or other professionals, what are the federal and provincial governments not doing enough of to get indigenous people working as bureaucrats so that we can see legislation and policies that are more in line with the indigenous world view?

Qujannamiik.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

That will be about a minute and a half each.

[Dr. Kevin Lewis]

Qujannamiik.

[Witness spoke in Cree, interpreted as follows]

I would like to talk about our reserve in terms of the COVID epidemic we had. Although we were given the technology to use for each household, we couldn't even use online schooling because we didn't have cell service. When we talk about the curriculum, we need to use the following. We lack a lot of curriculum development. We lack Cree language teachers, Dene teachers, Nakota Lakota teachers, and they have no resources.

We really need to have those and this is our hearts' desire that we really need to start having them and we really need to start working and developing our own curriculum.

It is our dream; we need to have translators and we need to have interpreters in our own communities. How do we talk with these elders? In terms of written language, in terms of doing syllabics and doing the standard Roman orthography writing, we need to bring that to the elders.

I have lots to say, but all I can say is there is a lot of lack in our communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Go ahead, Dr. Battiste.

[Dr. Marie Battiste]

Thank you.

One of the things in Nova Scotia that we have now is legislation that recognizes the Mi'kmaq-L'nu language, which is a great thing that's more recent. But what we don't have...and as we have this language, some of it is going to supporting the indigenous languages in our own communities in Mi’kma’ki, Unama’ki, and beyond.

One of the things they have done is to have translated some of the curriculum outcomes and so on into Mi'kmaq, but the gap problem is that it's all around a eurocentric curriculum. We can put all kinds of Mi'kmaq language onto a eurocentric curriculum, but that doesn't help us to develop our indigenous knowledge, our indigenous knowledge traditions, or keep our knowledge traditions alive and well for the seventh generation.

What we're have right now are layers of assimilation that keep on supporting one knowledge system, and it does so by just adding into it a few content areas that are Mi'kmaq, but it doesn't really give the full nature and foundation of what indigenous knowledge is and what we're trying to retain for our children for the future.

I think all of those things that the province does, and also the federal government, do not provide the second layers of what we once did with the Aboriginal Learning Knowledge Centre, which was create another layer of an architecture of learning that extended beyond that eurocentric curriculum.

I think at this present time all of the governments working in education and learning need to build their foundations on the reconciliation of indigenous knowledge traditions in all of the systems. It is not just for us; it's for all of Canadians, and all of them could benefit from that in non-appropriated and ethical ways.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Mr. Bacon, you have the floor.

[Marco Bacon]

I want to say that, if people go to school and get a diploma, of course, it's to start a career and work. Some Indigenous people continue their studies. They have a goal and objectives. Sometimes they are already on the labour market and go get a certificate to improve their situation.

For example, it's possible for a faculty of law to graduate a dozen Indigenous women as lawyers. I specify women, because there are still many more women than men at school. Here's the problem that often occurs: Not all of them will be hired at the same time in the community. One or two of them will be, but the other graduates don't have an opportunity. To avoid losing the skills they acquired, one solution provincial or federal governments could consider is the creation of employment programs for lawyers in urban settings, within Indigenous or non-Indigenous organizations, so that they can be hired. Organizations don't always have subsidies to hire people. However, if there were incentives and access to a graduate hiring program while candidates wait for a chance to return to their community, they could at least avoid losing their skills by working in their field for Indigenous or other organizations. That would be a good solution. Governments could create employment opportunity programs for graduates. Ultimately, there could be internships, but that's another story.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bacon.

Thank you so much to Dr. Marie Battiste as well and Dr. Kevin Lewis. Thank you so much for your testimony this afternoon. We know it's going to contribute greatly to our study.

That's the end of our second panel. Is there movement to adjourn?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

First of all, I'd like to propose a motion if I have a quick second here, Madam Chair, before we adjourn. It's not to really mess things up. It's going to be really simple.

It's Eric Melillo's birthday, and given that John Aldag is newest to the committee, I'd like to propose a unanimous consent motion that John lead the singing of “Happy Birthday” to Eric.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I'm not sure if Eric wants it less than I do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Do we have a seconder for that motion?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We're ready to filibuster if needed.

No, that's all; that's no problem.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Happy birthday, Eric.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Mrs. Gill, you have to floor.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to know if it would soon be possible to talk about committee business for about 10 minutes, so that we can discuss the motions for which notice was given. I am asking now because I do not want to infringe on the time granted to witnesses, of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Mrs. Gill, you may now table your motion.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I would have liked to do it outside of regular hours, to avoid using the committee's time. Otherwise, I'll do it when it's my turn to speak during the next meeting.

Should I ask for the committee's unanimous consent to meet outside of regular hours to discuss it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

We can do it next time.

Is there a motion to adjourn?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.