Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to welcome you to meeting number 79 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We acknowledge we meet on the unceded and traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

We're meeting today in hybrid format, as allowed under the Standing Orders. To members participating virtually, you know the drill. I'm not going to spend time on it. We want to hear from our witnesses.

We're going right to our witnesses for opening statements. Before we do that, though, I want to introduce and welcome our panel.

We're going in alphabetical order today. Starting with the Métis Nation of Alberta, we have Andrea Sandmaier, president, who is joined by Audrey Poitras, former president.

From the Métis Nation of Ontario, we have Margaret Froh, president. We also have Mitchell Case, regional councillor, Region 4, Métis Nation of Ontario.

Last but not least, we have Métis Nation-Saskatchewan's representative, Michelle LeClair, vice-president.

Welcome to each of you. I know you've waited a long time to join us at our committee.

We're going to give each of you five minutes for your opening statements. I have a handy card system here. When there are 30 seconds left on the clock, I'll show you the yellow card. When the time is up, I'll show you the red card. Don't stop mid-sentence. Wrap up your thought. It will be the same when we get into the questions. It's a way of keeping things flowing without my having to jump on the microphone to interrupt you. Look up once in a while. I'll ask the members to do the same thing. I'll keep track of the time. I'll give you the flag when it's time.

If you're ready, Ms. Sandmaier, and if you're doing the opening statement, the floor is yours.

[Andrea Sandmaier, President, Métis Nation of Alberta]

Is my mike on?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Just so you know, we have a team to look after turning your mikes off and on—

[Andrea Sandmaier]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

—in the room, so you don't have to touch anything. Just wait until the red light comes on; then you're good to start talking.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee.

I am Andrea Sandmaier. This September, I had the honour of being the first person elected as the president of the Métis Nation of Alberta, the MNA, under our new constitution, the Otipemisiwak Métis Government Constitution.

“Otipemisiwak” is the Cree name for the Métis people. It means “the people who own themselves”, “the people who govern themselves”. No sentiment could better capture the spirit of Bill C‑53. It is a bill to recognize who we are: a self-governing people.

In September, MNA citizens elected new representatives under our new governance structure and constitution. We did this because we are a self-governing nation, and our signed agreements with the Government of Canada recognize that.

Bill C‑53 implements our agreements and protects them. It ensures our Métis governments are equipped to support our citizens. Self-government means that we decide for ourselves how to best support Métis in Alberta. We decide what our housing and health programs look like. We decide how to help prepare our young people with world-class education and training. We decide how to support our elders as they age and we decide how to move forward together.

Only through self-government will the voices of Métis people truly be heard. This is why Bill C‑53 must be passed.

Our Métis ancestors were determined to govern themselves and to protect our traditions, values and truth for generations to come. They fought back against Canadian expansionism and the fraudulent scrip system that dispossessed our families and communities of our lands, and they defended Métis identity, lands, our way of life and our rights.

Over generations, the Crown made promises to our ancestors, but those promises were quickly broken, and our rights were denied and ignored. Nevertheless, we persevered. We came together, held democratic elections and built our self-government structures. Today the Métis Nation of Alberta is a democratic Métis government that represents more than 61,000 registered citizens.

We continue to come together to defend Métis rights and to advance our collective interests. We have built a province-wide service delivery system to help meet the needs of our people, yet we have always struggled to have Canada recognize us for what we are: a Métis government. Passing this legislation will provide that recognition. It is reconciliation in action. This historic step forward is long overdue.

Our section 35 rights as indigenous people are not a zero-sum game. The advancement of self-government and section 35 rights of one nation do not come at the expense of any other indigenous nation, and, more importantly, the legislation expressly applies only to the MNA, the MNO and the MN-S. The legislation does not impact the rights of other indigenous people, including other Métis.

We know that when one nation advances, it sets the path for all of us to move forward. The passage of Bill C‑53 doesn't affect anyone else, but failing to pass Bill C‑53 will hurt Métis people and the advancement of indigenous rights across the board. This is true for the Métis nation today. We deserve to advance in reconciliation, just like all other indigenous people.

Over the past 15 years, Parliament has passed all other indigenous self-government implementation legislation with all-party co-operation. It is our hope and expectation that Bill C‑53 will follow the same path.

I want to thank Minister Miller for bringing this legislation forward, and his successor, Minister Anandasangaree, for continuing this critical work and relationship.

Last November, over 15,000 Métis citizens in Alberta voted for self-government, and we adopted our Otipemisiwak Métis Government Constitution in the largest indigenous ratification vote in Canadian history. At that moment, a new chapter began for the Métis Nation of Alberta, and with this legislation a new chapter begins for Métis across Canada. Together, we can finally put an end to Canada's denial of the Métis as a self-governing indigenous people. Today we are asking for your support in passing Bill C-53.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That was perfect timing. Thank you so much.

We'll now go to Ms. Froh.

When you're ready, the floor is yours.

[Margaret Froh, President, Métis Nation of Ontario]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, committee members.

My name is Margaret Froh, and I am the democratically elected president of the Métis Nation of Ontario, or MNO.

I will start by acknowledging that we are on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe.

For over two centuries, Métis communities in what is now Ontario, along with other Métis communities throughout the Métis nation homeland, have stood up and asserted our peoplehood, our distinct collective identities and our rights as Métis. Within Ontario, Métis petitioned at Penetanguishene as early as the 1830s to have their rights and interests recognized. In 1849, Métis from the Sault Ste. Marie region joined with the Anishinabe to push back against Crown mining licences being issued in their shared territories, which led to the well-known Mica Bay uprising.

In 1875, the half-breeds of Rainy Lake and Rainy River asserted their rights and ultimately entered into an adhesion to Treaty No. 3. Métis living in locations such as Nipigon, Moose Factory and Mattawa petitioned as well. These Métis assertions were met with Crown indifference, denial and neglect. However, our people have always persevered. We did not go away or simply disappear.

It has been more than 40 years since section 35 of the Constitution was established, which recognized and affirmed the aboriginal and treaty rights of the Métis. For MNO, this year marks the 20th anniversary of the Supreme Court's landmark Powley decision, which remains foundational for Métis rights assertions right across the Métis nation homeland. The Sault Ste. Marie Métis community continues to be the only Métis community in Canada to have its rights recognized by the Supreme Court.

Bill C-53 is about more than Canada finally recognizing in law that the MNO is a Métis government and that the Métis communities represented by the MNO hold the inherent rights of self-government and self-determination. It's also about improving the lives of Métis children and Métis families and communities in Ontario, and right across the Métis nation homeland.

The inherent rights that this legislation enshrines are human rights. However, because of Canada's historic denial of the very existence of the Métis people and our communities, we've seen our people fall through the cracks and not enjoy the same quality of life as other Canadians. Canada's denial and neglect have resulted in our history and our communities not being as well known as they should.

Bill C-53 begins to reverse this colonial legacy of denial. It's the foundation needed for real and meaningful steps forward on the path to reconciliation, and it will have positive and tangible impacts on our communities, on our people. This includes the ability for Métis governments to finally have a say over what happens to Métis babies and children, and also over creating our own systems to take care of our families, which is something indigenous people across Canada have been pursuing for decades. We will finally be able to design programs and services that meet the actual needs of our citizens. Bill C-53 will enable us to make those choices, not the Crown.

I want to emphasize that Bill C-53 applies to only the MNO, the MNA and the MN-S. Bill C-53 does not impact the rights of other indigenous peoples in any way, including Ontario first nations. I want to acknowledge there have been concerns raised by some first nations about this legislation and to reassure you that the MNO has been working hard to dispel the myths and false information that have been spread about this bill.

We ask this committee to ensure that it remains focused on what the bill actually does and says, and not on the myths or the rhetoric, the anti-Métis rhetoric, being advanced by some.

Similar to other indigenous self-government legislation that Parliament has passed, Bill C-53 is only about matters that are internal to our Métis self-government, so it's about our Métis citizenship. It's about Métis elections, Métis government internal operations, and Métis child and family services. It recognizes that no one other than our Métis citizens and communities should have a say over these internal self-government matters.

Bill C-53 truly is reconciliation in action. It was co-developed with our governments and Canada, and it was introduced in Parliament with our full support. We do not seek any amendments or changes to the bill, and we ask that it be passed quickly by this committee, consistent with how other indigenous self-government legislation has been considered.

All we are asking is that Métis be respected and be treated fairly and consistently by this committee, and that we be supported in our journey of self-determination and self-government. Reconciliation with all Canada's indigenous peoples is Parliament's goal.

Now is the time for Parliament to take a clear step forward to achieve this goal, hand in hand with the Métis, and pass Bill C-53.

Thank you, and I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Ms. LeClair, we will go to you for your five minutes. The floor is yours when you're ready to start.

[Michelle LeClair, Vice-President, Métis Nation-Saskatchewan]

Tansi, edlanat'e, and good afternoon.

I am Michelle LeClair. I am the vice-president and minister of justice for the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan.

I am honoured to be here today to talk to you about Bill C-53. As a Métis leader, I know I am indebted to the leaders who have come before me, and some of you know of them, the late Jim Sinclair and the late Harry Daniels, among many others. Some of my earliest memories are of those leaders fighting for the recognition of our rights. Forty-one years ago, section 35 included Métis, first nations and Inuit people. One of the people who fought for those rights was Harry Daniels.

They fought for the recognition of our rights: our right to self-determination, our right to self-government, our right to raise our children and our right to thrive as a nation, the Métis Nation of Saskatchewan. Generation after generation, our leaders sacrificed everything to get to this point, and our government will work tirelessly to see this through. Our section 35 rights must be honoured and recognized.

As representatives of Canada around the table, you do not grant us those rights. These rights are inherent rights, and they were given to us by the Creator and by those ancestors who fought—and many died—to ensure that we had those rights. It is the duty of the Crown to recognize and uphold them. For more than 150 years of colonialism and oppression, our communities were divided and scattered, and still our people remained strong and united.

This is what many fail to grasp about Bill C-53. The Métis, of course, according to the Canadian Constitution under section 35, are one of the indigenous peoples. These three peoples have rights, and they always have. There is no hierarchy of rights or peoples in section 35. There are the first nations, the Métis and the Inuit. We are all equal under the law.

Canada must recognize our rights and negotiate with each of us in good faith. This is your duty. Mine is to sit here and remind you of your duty. I also want to remind you that section 35 is a full box of rights. It isn't up to other people to determine what those rights are. You don't get to pick our rights or choose the rights that we or other aboriginal peoples get; these are inherent rights. We all get the same recognition. We are all on the same footing.

Legitimate rights holders should not be pitted against one another. We would not tolerate it if this was attempted with our first nations and Inuit relations. All of you who represent Canada are bound to the honour of the Crown. It's your responsibility to build bridges and to create opportunities for everyone to thrive, not to divide and conquer.

To that end, we know that first nations in Ontario have voiced opposition to this legislation, and we acknowledge this. The MN-S has consistently advocated a process to defend the integrity of our nation. We have championed and advanced to all Métis nation governments an independent panel that would look at the root issue. This expert panel is our way, the Métis way, to address this in a responsible, transparent and objective way.

I am confident that the expert panel will shed some light on the concerns that Ontario first nations have. I am hoping that the chiefs of Ontario will attend, become part of that process and express their concerns to the panel.

I also encourage Ontario first nations to raise these issues with Canada.

During the treaty consultation process, all three treaties—MNA, MNO, MN-S—will be negotiated independently, and it's there, through that process, that the duty to consult will be triggered. MN-S is committed to ensuring that all impacted parties are consulted when we're negotiating our treaty. We assume that MNO and MNA will do the same.

The treaty process is Canada's venue to hear these concerns. Ours is in our expert panel. I encourage Ontario first nations to utilize both fully.

The venue for these concerns is not here, not regarding Bill C-53. Our legislation doesn't trigger the duty to consult. It lays the path to treaty-making and for Canada to finally recognize what we have always known.

We have never stopped and will never stop defending our rights, generation after generation. In this moment, I feel within me all of the lessons I've learned and every blood memory passed down to me from each of those leaders I talked about earlier. They prepared us for this moment. I promised them and our people that I will never stop until our rights are recognized.

Bill C-53 is your chance to build a lasting relationship, a nation-to-nation relationship, with Métis Nation-Saskatchewan. We're ready for this. The question is, are you?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you to each of you for your opening statements.

Now we're going to get into the discussion.

There are a couple of things I'd like to mention. Again, it's the same thing. I'll keep track of time and give a warning when there are 30 seconds left and when time is up, so we can move to the next round of questions.

Ms. Idlout is able to speak in her home language, so when it's Ms. Idlout's turn, have your translation available if you need it. We are really proud that we're able to do this. When we have indigenous witnesses, if we can accommodate any other languages, we try to do that as well. I'm really proud of the work that this committee is doing on that front.

I would now like to start with Mr. Vidal, who has the floor for six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It's actually Mr. Schmale.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. We'll go with Mr. Schmale.

When you're ready, I'll start the clock.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for appearing today, and to those in the audience here. This is a very important topic. I think we will all look back in the history books and say that we were in this place when these discussions and the conversations were happening around this piece of legislation.

Maybe I'll start first with the last comment made by Vice-President LeClair around that piece on consultation.

As you said, you're doing self-government. This piece of legislation focuses in on Saskatchewan, Ontario and Alberta only, so it doesn't quite trigger consultation. As you pointed out in your opening remarks, the second part does, and that part focuses around the treaty.

To get clarification—and it doesn't matter who answers—when the treaty part happens at some point, which will then trigger the consultation, does it have to come back to Parliament for ratification, or would it be a Governor in Council sign-off? It's something that I want to get confirmation on, because we are getting conflicting reports on it.

[Margaret Froh]

I'd like to thank the chair and the honourable member for the question.

I would agree with you completely. This is a historic day, and so we're happy to be here.

In terms of the treaty, at the point where we're negotiating the treaty, as Vice-President LeClair was saying, if there's anything in that treaty that would impact the rights of any other indigenous peoples, the duty to consult and accommodate would be triggered, and Canada would be held to that standard. We would expect Canada to stand to that standard.

Bill C-53 is not the treaty, and I think that's important to say. When we're focusing on Bill C-53, we're talking about what's before us today. It's the legislative cradle for future agreements, including the future treaty.

I think your question around exactly what the process would be in terms of treaty and how that moves through the federal process is probably best addressed to the minister, who would be able to give you the proper response on that. I would come back to the fact that Bill C-53 itself is not a treaty. It speaks to a future treaty and it will become the cradle for that treaty when it comes.

Again, it focuses on those matters that are internal to our three Métis governments: our citizenship, how we elect our leaders, how we govern ourselves, how we take care of our children. As such, there is no duty to consult.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Just so I don't leave anyone out, is there anyone else who wants to respond to that? We will definitely ask the minister and departmental officials, but, to clarify, if this legislation passes—I'm not saying with no amendments—and then the treaty process consultations would happen and take however long they would, is it anyone else's understanding that we would need parliamentary approval to approve or reject any treaty that would come after that?

We are getting reports from organizations saying no, but I want to hear clarification if anyone here can give it. We'll ask the department officials when they come in too.

No one else wants to respond?

We will follow up with the departmental officials, then.

President Froh, I'll jump to you.

There were some concerns—and I'm sure you know about them, since you've been reading the same news we all have—from the Ontario chiefs on the issue of membership. They've raised a few concerns around membership, specifically with respect to the way some memberships are being approved, if you will.

As you know, the Indian Act gives the government control over who belongs to a first nation, or who has status, but Métis organizations approve their own members. There was some criticism around how you deal with your membership. Maybe you want to address that so we can flesh that out.

[Margaret Froh]

Thank you for the question. I'm sure my colleagues may want to jump in on this as well.

The Métis Nation of Ontario, the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan and the Métis Nation of Alberta all follow a national definition. We each have very strong registries, and the process to apply for citizenship is very rigorous. We take that very seriously. In fact, we take it so seriously that in Ontario recently, our citizens' assembly, after a multi-year independent review of our registry, determined that there were some 5,000 citizen files on people who achieved citizenship without meeting the criteria over the course of the last 30 years, perhaps before we had a national definition and resources for our registry, so we've resolved to remove those 5,000 citizens. That's how seriously we take the issue of citizenship.

We don't have buses that roam around the province. That's another piece of information some have thrown out there. We have a very rigorous registry process, a very professional registry, and we determine who belongs. I think that's the important part of Bill C-53: Indigenous peoples have the right—this is part of UNDRIP as well—to decide who belongs. Bill C-53 respects our Métis government's right to determine citizenship, and we do that through a rigorous process.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I have seven seconds, so I'll save the rest for—

Oh, Ms. LeClair wants to respond.

[Michelle LeClair]

I do, if you don't mind.

Thanks for the question, Jamie.

Just as Margaret talked about, our citizenship and our registry are transparent. She used the word “rigorous”. It's our right, and that's part of what this bill is about. It's our right to determine our membership. On the questions that Ontario first nations might have, I think it's an important point that, number one, we have this expert panel that is already active. They have an opportunity to bring that to us at the Métis National Council and to express their concerns about whatever it is, whether it's citizenship or whether they think there's going to be some land on which there's infringement, and all of that. We would love to hear what their concerns are, because there hasn't been talking back and forth for whatever reason. Bring those concerns there, and in the Métis way we will deal with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to jump in.

We're about a minute over and we have lots of time. There may be a chance to come back to this.

[Michelle LeClair]

I just want to finish my thought.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, but perhaps you could conclude so that we could move on to the next questioner.

[Michelle LeClair]

The other point I would make is that we're in a legislative process; we're not in treaty making right now. At this time, there is not a trigger on duty to consult.

I'll end with that.

Thank you very much, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

I apologize for cutting you off.

[Michelle LeClair]

No worries.