Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I can use the balance of my time later, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

I should clarify as well that, as we go through the questions, each member will generally control where they're directing their questions. If you want to jump in, feel free to raise your hand to get the member's attention. I tend to let the members decide where they're directing their questions. If you have something to say or build on, let the member asking the question know you're ready to weigh in.

If they choose to go on to another line of questioning.... We start getting some pretty tight time frames and it picks up after that, so it is the member's choice where they're going to direct their questions.

Now, without any further delay, Ms. Idlout, we'll go to you for your six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut]

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Lori, just a second. We're not getting the translation.

I'm going to restart your time.

Please start over, Lori. I apologize for that.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I'm sorry. Are we testing?

Okay.

First of all, I want to thank every one of you. What I'm hearing is very good.

I am speaking to you now from my home community of Iqaluit. I am glad to hear what you're speaking about. We are speaking to our rights as peoples—as Métis, Cree and Inuit. Right now, the focus is on Métis rights, as a nation.

If Bill C-53 is not passed, how would it affect your nation, yourselves, your children and your grandchildren?

If you all want to respond to this question.... I leave it to you to respond.

Thank you.

[Margaret Froh]

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to respond.

Halu. Thank you for the question, honourable member.

Bill C-53 is indigenous recognition legislation. It is the same type of legislation that comes with every indigenous self-governing agreement and every modern treaty in this country's history. It provides the tools that Canada needs to change its laws to recognize indigenous governments.

Each of our Métis governments have now signed two self-government agreements. We made history in doing that. We require this legislation in order for Canada to change its laws to provide that recognition. If Bill C-53 is not passed, not only would that mark the first time ever in this country's history that Parliament has not supported indigenous self-government, it would also leave us in a bit of a limbo in that we have written agreements with government recognizing our inherent rights, without the legislation to provide the support for that recognition. I think that could create many different types of problems for Parliament and for government. It will certainly create problems for our governance as well.

More importantly, it would send a signal to the Métis in this country that they are not respected. That, I believe, is the very opposite of the intent of reconciliation.

I would thank the member for the question. We're looking forward to this opportunity to talk to the committee, to go through the legislative process, to see Bill C-53 become law and to finally to see that recognition of Métis self-government in this country.

[Michelle LeClair]

I can add to that.

Thank you for the question, Lori.

We have been a self-governing people for hundreds of years. We have fought and fought. From Louis Riel losing his life to my own uncle dying on the last day of the Battle of Batoche, our people have gone through a lot.

When we talk about scattered communities.... In Saskatchewan, to get families off road allowance, they had this scheme whereby they could send them up north to a particular community of Green Lake. As those people got into the trains, their villages and their communities were burned. They watched that happen.

This is not something that we're fighting for all of a sudden. We've been fighting this for since the Battle of Seven Oaks in the early 1800s. We have been left out again and again. We've been treated like the poor cousins of somebody.

How does it affect our children and our grandchildren? It affects them in the same way as it has affected us, our grandparents and our great-grandparents in the way that they were treated. It doesn't speak to the intent of what section 25 and section 35 are supposed to do.

This is the beginning of a bill. This is just talking about governing ourselves and moving to where we need to in order get to a treaty. If we can't pass this bill, then we're not respecting the Canadian Constitution. We're picking and choosing which nations Canada wants to deal with. We're saying to Métis people, “I'm sorry; you're not quite as important as somebody else.”

That's not right. I hope that when we talk about reconciliation.... I just testified at an APPA meeting on Bill C-29, which is on reconciliation. This is reconciliation in action. Not only does it deal with reconciliation; it also deals with the UNDRIP. It deals with constitutional obligations that Canada has to us. If this bill fails, I believe it would be a tremendous black mark on this beautiful country we call Canada.

You can't pick and choose.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. That's the end of that six-minute round.

The next two members will have five minutes, followed by two members with two and a half minutes, and then two members with five minutes.

Mr. Vidal, you're next. The floor is yours when you're ready to go.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I too want to thank all of you for being here today. I know that this has been a long journey.

I know that it's been said already, but I'm going to say it again: This is a very significant and defining moment, both for Métis people across our country and for our country in general. I think we need to get this right. I think having the honest and what I call in my interactions with people “adult” conversations sometimes—which means that sometimes we need to have difficult conversations to get through the journey together—is maybe part of the process that we're going to go through today.

I have about seven different directions that I want to go in here. I'll try to focus on a couple in the next four minutes.

Just for clarity, I want to go back to the comment my colleague Mr. Schmale made or the question he had asked. It was about Parliament not having to pass legislation to enact the treaties later. We do have a legislative summary from our very capable Library of Parliament analysts. They very clearly told us that “Parliament will not need to pass additional legislation to implement future treaties or supplementary self-government agreements with listed Métis governments. Rather, any such agreements will be brought into force by the Governor in Council.” That seems pretty clear to me, unless the analysts have some other reason to clarify that for me. I'm assuming they don't.

Where I want to go with this, just quickly, is the timing of all this. This all started way back in about 2018 with MOUs. Then there were agreements in 2019. There was an updated agreement in February of 2023. I think, for each of you, they're all unique agreements.

With that long preamble, let me simply ask each of you this: What's next? If this legislation is passed, each of you will enter into a process. That will be an independent process, if I understand it correctly. I also understand that there are some very clear next steps and some time frames that include a window of about two years, starting from when you signed those agreements.

Can you clarify for everybody in this room, each of you, what's next if this legislation gets passed?

[Margaret Froh]

I'm happy to start. Thank you very much for the question.

Yes, it did start back in 2017. We've been building on that ever since.

What's next for us? As you've referenced, in our agreements all three of our Métis governments have committed with Canada to enter into negotiation of a modern self-government treaty, taking this jurisdiction that's been recognized around how we self-govern, how we govern ourselves, into treaty form. That's definitely part of the work we'll be undertaking with Canada.

Then, of course, each respective government is busy implementing their self-government agreement. We're at various stages of that. We're all on that same path toward that full recognition of self-government. As the Métis Nation of Ontario, we're beginning a constitution-building process. I'll let my colleagues speak to where they are, but yes, there's a great deal more work to do.

On top of that, we have to deal with the day-to-day providing of services to our people. In particular, the piece about taking care of our children is a massive part of the work we have ahead of us.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

For the Métis Nation of Alberta, as stated in my opening remarks, we had a ratification vote last November of our constitution. That was one step. Then, on September 19 of 2023, we had our first election under our new Otipemisiwak Métis government. It now goes from six regions to 22 districts and 25 people, including a women's representative, a youth representative and me sitting on a citizens' council. We have a lot of work to do there, as you can imagine.

Of course, there is also our treaty negotiations. We've done a lot. We still have a lot more to do.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you want to respond as well, Michelle?

[Michelle LeClair]

Sure, but I'll be really quick, because we're doing a lot of things that are similar to what Alberta and Ontario are doing.

We are in constitutional reform. We're making sure that we have our governance structures that work for our people. We've been going through that process. We are working on a judiciary that deals with issues that happen within our government, even around child and family services. There's been a lot of work done there.

In the meantime, negotiating that treaty is very important while trying to stay within that window of two years and at the same time consulting with our first nations communities in Saskatchewan. We do that anyway, but we'll continue to do that to make sure we're not in any way infringing on their rights. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you a story....

I'll be really quick, John. Sorry. We're—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

He's getting my red card.

Just be very quick, and then we'll go to the next question.

[Michelle LeClair]

We're doing Bill C-92 consultations—which deal with the safety of children and jurisdiction and that sort of thing—in our community all throughout Saskatchewan. What's been really great about that whole process is that we've been able to work with our sisters and brothers from first nations communities to make sure that when we're dealing with families and children, we're doing it right.

I just wanted to make that point, after the red card.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thanks, Michelle.

We're going to go now to Mr. McLeod. He's joining us online.

Mr. McLeod, when you are ready, you have five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters here today. I really appreciate your presentation of very interesting information.

As a Métis person from the Northwest Territories, I totally understand the work and effort that has taken place over the years. I think my committee colleagues are tired of hearing me say it, but I've been involved in a land claim since the 1970s, and we still haven't finished our framework agreement. It's a long process, but I think we're also all connected.

My first language was Michif. I'm a descendant of people who were fighting in the Riel Rebellion and who went north to avoid prosecution, so in some ways I think we're all connected. The fighting during the Riel Rebellion caused people to split all over the country.

I can tell you that in the Northwest Territories, in our case, we have a joint land claim. It's first nations and Métis together. We share a lot in common. We're all related, and we speak the same languages for the most part. We share hunting areas.

When it comes to negotiating a land claim, though, the status first nations can pull out a band council list that's well documented. Everything is there—birth dates and all the information that's been compiled for years. On our side, on the Métis side, we don't have a list like that. We have to take the list that we have compiled, and the government decides.... Together, I guess, we decide on criteria, and then there's an enumeration process. That process could take a long time in some cases. The NWT Métis, for example, have been negotiating and doing the enumeration since the 1990s, and they figure that at the rate they're going, it's going to be another 10 years. They certainly don't have the numbers that you guys have.

I'm expecting that this is what you're going to be seeing.

I don't know if everybody is on the same page when it comes down to your membership, though. I want you to just tell me quickly.... Maybe just one of you can confirm that there is a confirmation, that there is a test for every one of your members, and that there will be a process, at some point, for enumeration.

[Margaret Froh]

As I was mentioning earlier, each of our Métis governments has a well-established registry. There are very clear criteria for applying for citizenship. There's a very rigorous process that is involved for that, and every citizen making an application for citizenship has to meet those criteria in order to be recognized and admitted as a citizen.

In terms of enumeration, I think that in that sense, we're in a very good place, in that we already have those well-established registries in hand. In many respects, it's a little bit of a different process from what you are seeing in the Northwest Territories.

Again, this comes back to Bill C-53 and just how important it is to have that legislative framework for the recognition of the registries that we do have and of our inherent jurisdiction around citizenship, so thank you for the question. Marsi.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I want to thank you for that. I felt I had to ask you to clarify, even though the question was posed before. As soon as we talk about this bill, I think it's something that keeps coming up with almost everybody, because they're saying that these organizations are just opening the door so that anybody can walk in.

I'm not sure if you're at a point where you can talk to this detail, but equality or parity is something that we're really striving to get as an indigenous population in the Northwest Territories. Our goal is to have parity on all programs and services at some point, to be able to have the same access to health care, education, employment, housing and social services—the list goes on—as first nations people do.

I know that that's plaguing a lot of Métis people now, because if you're Métis and you have a child who's born with autism, you can't get support from Jordan's principle or programs of that nature. Is that something that maybe is your goal or something you're experiencing already that you'd like to see changed?

[Michelle LeClair]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry; we're at the end of the time. If somebody could answer this question briefly, then maybe it's something that can be picked up in another round.

[Michelle LeClair]

I won't be long.

Yes, those are the things that we need to do. We talk about the sixties scoop and we talk about all of those things, but when we look at what's happening in our province of Saskatchewan, for example, it's a new kind of scoop. There's not the support that kids need. Kids are getting taken away from their homes, sometimes for not very good reasons.

Sometimes one of the reasons that a child is taken away is that mom can't afford to deal with the child's disability. All of you probably know that Métis people can't apply for Jordan's principle. I believe the Inuit can, but Métis people can't, so you can literally, Michael, have a family with a mom who has two kids, one Métis and one first nations, and they're not treated equally.

There needs to be equal treatment of these indigenous kids. It again goes back to section 35. Come on; our rights are equal rights, and Métis people and Métis children are not treated in the same way as other indigenous people.

These are the things that we need to work toward in a good way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. Thank you.

We're going to move to Madame Gill.

Just to warn our witnesses, the next two rounds go very fast. They're two and a half minutes, so everybody needs to be pretty tight with their comments.

Madame Gill, the floor is yours.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As one of my colleagues said earlier, there are certainly difficult questions. The witnesses touched on myths earlier, and I'd like to raise one myth that relates to what Mr. McLeod just spoke about.

On one hand, he said that there was some concern that there would be a meteoric growth in membership, a concern to which the witnesses responded. On the other hand, there are people who define themselves as Métis, but refuse to recognize the structures, even those of the Métis, and who, as a result, say they are excluded from their own nation. I don't know the reasons behind this, and we should ask them. If any of these people appear before the committee, I will, of course, ask them.

We've talked about advocating inclusion rather than division. We may not be discussing treaties here, but how can Bill C‑53 dispel those fears?

I don't know who would like to answer. I saw Ms. LeClair and Ms. Froh nodding.

[Margaret Froh]

I am happy to take the start.

I think it's very important. Bill C-53 is very clear that it only applies to our three Métis governments. It only applies to those individuals, those citizens who choose to be citizens of our three Métis governments. I think that is the answer to the question. Any individual can choose to be a citizen of one of our three Métis governments, or not. This legislation will only impact those who are.