Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I just need to keep the conversation going.

We're going to go now to Mr. Battiste.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you for that, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to acknowledge all of the Métis leaders gathered in this room for this historic day who are here sharing this day with you.

I know that in September we celebrated 20 years since the Powley decision. I'm wondering if you could share with this committee what Powley stated and what Powley was about, as well as how the Powley case defined who was Métis.

[Margaret Froh]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, honourable member, for the question.

Yes, it has been 20 years since we brought forward Powley. Powley was actually part of.... The entire Métis nation and all of our governments were defending our citizens in the courts to try to get a case to go all the way to the Supreme Court so that we could finally get a decision on the issue of Métis rights. That decision was Powley, and on September 19, we marked the 20th anniversary. All of our Métis governments right across the Métis nation were united on this. We brought it forward together.

Also, in advance of going to the court, the Métis nation actually determined a national definition. We said to the Supreme Court that it's up to the nation to decide, and not the courts. Stay out of that. What the court did was say, yes, there is a Métis community in Sault Ste. Marie and it does have rights, and the court set out a test to prove Métis rights that is still the test in Canada today. In fact, Sault Ste. Marie, as I said earlier, remains the only Métis community that's recognized by the Supreme Court with section 35 rights.

Effectively, what it did was to say that in order to have Métis rights, you need to identify as a Métis person as distinct from other indigenous peoples. You need to show distinct Métis ancestry, and you need to show that Métis ancestry within historic Métis communities. That's because Métis rights are collective rights. They're all about those historic communities.

Therefore, coming out of Powley there was finally that clarity. That's been the foundation that's been used to negotiate harvesting rights in Manitoba and Alberta. It's been the foundation for Métis rights cases right across the Métis nation homeland. It provides clarity.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you for that.

Would you say that the definitions of all three—MN-S, MNA and MNO—of who is a Métis are consistent with Powley?

[Margaret Froh]

Absolutely. With all of our registries, the criteria that we apply are consistent with Powley, and as such, our Métis governments represent, as per the Constitution, rights-bearing Métis people within our respective jurisdictions.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you for that.

There's been a lot of talk about this being the first step for Métis. I was listening to the discussion yesterday and the ceremony for the Saskatchewan Métis, and you said that this is a historic starting place and that we have a lot more to do as a government to get fulfillment of Métis rights.

My understanding of Bill C-53 is that this is all about internal governance that's for the Métis, and nowhere does it mention land or resources. Also, nowhere in BillC-53 does it recognize that any parts of lands or resources would be in jeopardy or trigger a duty to consult. Is that your understanding as well?

[Michelle LeClair]

Yes, absolutely. It really is talking about our own right to govern ourselves and the right to take care of our kids and our families.

Just as an aside, we have so many Métis kids who are lost in the system or have aged out of that system and have no idea who they are or where their communities are and so on and so forth. These are really important issues, but they are governance sorts of issues. The bill doesn't touch issues of land, any kind of ceremonial rights or any of those kinds of things. It's really the starting point.

We are a self-governing people, as I said before. It's doing the right thing. It's the acknowledgement by the federal government that we have that right through legislation, and it affects literally no one other than our communities and our people.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I'll add to that and say again that the legislation does not talk about resources. It does not talk about land. It is about us. It's about our governance structure, our citizenship, our operations and our children, as Vice-President LeClair said, which is very important to all of us. It does not at all talk about resources or land.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Some of the concerns that have been raised are that there are no numbers for how many people are currently registered under the MNA, MNO and MN-S.

Do you guys keep a registry? What is that registry number at?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

For the Métis Nation of Alberta, we have over 61,000 citizens registered.

[Margaret Froh]

For the Métis Nation of Ontario, again, we all have very professional registries. Within the next two weeks, it will be approximately 27,000 registered citizens. Currently, it is around the 31,000 or 32,000 mark.

[Michelle LeClair]

Thanks for the question. We have around 30,000 registered Métis citizens in Saskatchewan.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Is there any reason to believe that Bill C-53 would create a ballooning or huge expansion of those numbers? Some of the fears are that it could be as much as 500,000 to a million people all of a sudden signing up. Is there any legitimacy to those arguments?

[Michelle LeClair]

I don't see that happening. For example, if you look to Stats Canada, you see that there are about 80,000 people who have self-declared in Saskatchewan—

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Michelle, because I have run out of time, could I get a yes or no?

[Michelle LeClair]

No.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

No.

[Margaret Froh]

I would agree, as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Madam Gill, who will have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses. I'll try to leave each nation two minutes to answer my question. I know it's a difficult question, but I have to play devil's advocate.

Ms. Froh, you talked about myths, misinformation, and also about rhetoric that should be deconstructed. I'm picking up on your earlier comments. I think you could be a spokesperson for all the people here today.

I'd like to hear comments from each of you because, basically, this is your space. You talked about inherent rights, which I acknowledge. Still, there are people who oppose the bill. What would you say to them about this misinformation, myths and rhetoric?

Ms. Sandmaier, would you like to begin, before turning the floor over to Ms. Froh and then Ms. LeClair? If you don't mind, I'll let you know when your two minutes are up. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of time. Please don't hesitate to follow up later with any additional information.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I'll just say something that we've said over and over in all of our opening remarks—Bill C-53 is about us. It's about the Métis Nation of Ontario, the Métis Nation of Saskatchewan and the Métis Nation of Alberta. It is about our governance structure. It is about our citizenship, our electoral process and our children. It is about no one else but us. Thank you.

[Margaret Froh]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, again, I would reiterate that there's been a lot of rhetoric and there's been a lot of misinformation, I think, from the very basic point around the denial of Métis communities existing.

That is a fact within this country. It's a fact certainly within Ontario. In fact, that's the law within Canada. To simply make a statement that Métis communities don't exist or to have the misunderstanding on the impact of this, when clearly it is focused only on our internal governance and there is no impact on any other people is the type of misinformation.... There are many examples of that.

I think it's important to come back to just how important Bill C-53 is. We've been waiting for it for over 200 years. We've been fighting for that recognition of rights. We secured that, in fact, 20 years ago, yet here we are again having to debate with people the question of whether or not we even exist, let alone if we have rights.

We don't want to go backwards. We are looking forward, and particularly we're looking forward to the future for our children.

[Michelle LeClair]

I would echo what my colleagues said.

I think, when bills come forward, you're always going to hear misinformation and that sort of thing. The fact of the matter is that Métis people have inherent rights to self-determination, to govern ourselves and to take care of our children. We're not asking to take care of other people's children. We have those rights, as I said earlier. Those rights don't come from here or from out there. They come from the Creator and the people who fought. Many died for us to get to this point. We have to remember that.

The other important point we have to remember, always, is that we are one of the three indigenous peoples in the Canadian Constitution. That is our law. To say, “Well, you know what? I like the first nations. I think I'll deal with them in good faith. For the Inuit, it's the same thing.” What about the Métis? Where is the good faith? Where is the honour of the Crown?

We're listening to all this stuff happening. I believe everybody has the right to speak and have free speech, the right to demonstrate and all of that. At the end of the day, as we sit here and look at that legislation—and I know you've all looked at it—it doesn't affect anybody's rights but our own.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Ms. Sandmaier, you seem to have something to add.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

We also said, in our comments, that this is reconciliation in action.

For my late elder Francis Dumais, the word “reconciliation”.... He was a Cree speaker. There was no word in Cree for reconciliation. He always talked about setting things straight. “It's time for the government to set things straight.” It is. Sadly, we lost him last year. He was a leader in the Métis Nation of Alberta. He was a mentor, an elder and a friend. I wish he could be here today, but I know he's watching.

Thank you.