Evidence of meeting #24 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-10.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Irngaut  President, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated
Bertha Rabesca Zoe  Chief of Behchoko, Tlicho Government
Shappa  Chief Administrative Officer, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated
Campbell  Senior Policy Advisor, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated
Chief Math'ieya Alatini  Council of Yukon First Nations
Sam  Chief Councillor, Kitsumkalum Band Council
Cross  Executive Councillor, Tsawwassen First Nation
Childs  Legal Counsel, Tsawwassen First Nation

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

I'm calling the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 24 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We recognize that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to the order of the House, the committee is continuing its study of Bill C-10, an act respecting the commissioner for modern treaty implementation.

Before I introduce our first panel, I want to do a little housekeeping.

I'll let you know that we're looking at doing clause-by-clause at our next meeting, in the second hour. I'm seeing nodding heads, so that's good.

We've identified our next study. It's going to be on Bill S-228.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

That's a good choice, Chair.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you for your work.

It's on forced sterilization. We'll be doing that study.

Committee members, please get your witnesses in by the end of the day on Friday so that after our constituency week, we can start that study.

Now I'd like to introduce our first panel.

We've had some issues with video conference connections, so our first panellist is unable to connect for interpretation. They will be online to listen.

We also have MP Idlout online.

Here in the room, from Nunavut Tunngavik, we have Paul Irngaut, president; Alastair Campbell, senior policy adviser; and June Shappa, chief administrative officer. From the Tlicho Government, we have Bertha Rabesca Zoe, chief of Behchokǫ̀; and Colin Salter, legal counsel.

We will start with the folks in the room.

Paul, you have five minutes. I'll give you 30 seconds to wrap up, and we'll go from there. Then we'll have questions.

Paul Irngaut President, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated

Qujannamiik. Thank you for the invitation to appear here today.

I'm pleased to be here as the president of Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated and the co-chair of the Land Claims Agreements Coalition.

In 1993, Nunavut Tunngavik signed the Nunavut agreement, our modern treaty with Canada. Decades earlier, we had begun documenting our traditional land use and occupancy across our homeland, before the federal government adopted a comprehensive land claims policy. That work eventually led to the signing of our agreement and the creation of Nunavut.

Some parts of the agreement were implemented relatively smoothly. For example, capital transfer payments were clearly scheduled in the agreement, and Inuit-owned lands were registered through the land title system. However, other areas of implementation have proven far more difficult and have sometimes required litigation to ensure that the commitments in our agreement are respected.

One ongoing concern is the implementation of Inuit treaty rights in adjacent waters. The Nunavut agreement states that Inuit must have meaningful access to fisheries near the Nunavut settlement area. In practice, Inuit have to struggle to secure their access to quota allocations, which frequently favour other interests.

Large portions of offshore fisheries are allocated to parties outside of Nunavut, despite Inuit communities being closest and adjacent to these resources and despite the agreement's explicit acknowledgement of the principle of adjacency and assurances of full economic participation by Inuit. Although the courts have affirmed that Nunavut's adjacency rights must be meaningfully considered in federal decisions, these principles have not been fully realized in offshore quota allocations.

Our experience with fisheries reflects a broader challenge that many modern treaties have faced: a gap between commitments contained in our agreements and the reality of implementation.

NTI and other treaty organizations formed the Land Claims Agreements Coalition in 2003. Inuit and first nations from across the country came together because we shared many of the same concerns about implementation.

One of the coalition's outstanding recommendations since its formation in 2003 has been the creation of an implementation body to review and monitor how modern treaties are implemented. Such an office would provide transparency and accountability and would help overcome systemic barriers, thereby benefiting both indigenous partners and governments. A commissioner for modern treaty implementation could help ensure that agreements are implemented faithfully and consistently, ensuring that commitments in modern treaties are implemented in spirit and intent.

We drafted Bill C-10 co-operatively as part of the effort. It represents a joint initiative to strengthen the implementation of modern treaties and improve the relationship between indigenous people and the Crown.

Ultimately, modern treaties are commitments. Implementing them fully is essential if we are to build the partnership that these agreements were meant to create.

Qujannamiik. Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you.

Chief Zoe, you have five minutes, please.

Chief Bertha Rabesca Zoe Chief of Behchoko, Tlicho Government

My name is Bertha Rabesca Zoe. I'm a Tlicho person. I'm a mother and a grandmother of nine. I'm also a lawyer. I've been legal counsel to the Tlicho Government for a number of years, leading files on the implementation of intergovernmental relations. I wanted to say that to give you an idea of the kind of knowledge that we bring to this table.

With that, mahsi and good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee. Thank you for inviting us to speak today. I acknowledge that we are gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin nation, and I thank them for hosting us.

I am here as the chief of Behchokǫ̀, located in the Northwest Territories, and as a representative of the Tlicho Government in full support of Bill C-10, an act respecting the commissioner for modern treaty implementation. As a founding member of the Land Claims Agreements Coalition, the Tlicho Government has been advocating for the creation of a commissioner for modern treaties implementation for over 20 years, including co-drafting this legislation with the federal government.

We support this bill as drafted, and we urge you to pass it without amendment. Modern treaties are part of Canada's constitutional framework, and they cover nearly half of Canada's lands, waters and resources. They are not only tools to advance reconciliation; they are how major projects move forward in our territories in a way that works for everyone.

The commissioner would help address long-standing structural and systemic barriers to modern treaty implementation. For example, Tlicho's exercise of jurisdiction over education does not neatly fall within the mandate of one federal department.

The fragmentation of responsibilities across federal departments and the absence of clear accountability have hindered the Tlicho Government's ability to make timely progress on exercising jurisdiction over education with its treaty partners in accordance with the Tlicho agreement. Because there is no dedicated and independent oversight body to assess how these cross-departmental obligations are being carried out, these implementation gaps go unchecked.

As modern treaty partners, there have been times when we have had no choice but to resort to costly disputes and litigation. A commissioner would provide a new path for determining what is and isn't working, identifying barriers early and supporting timely and effective implementation before issues escalate to dispute resolution or the courts.

Some have asked why this role should not simply be left to the Auditor General. The Auditor General's broad mandate spans all of government. It lacks the expertise or capacity needed to provide sustained and effective oversight on modern treaty implementation. Bill C-10 is designed to complement, not duplicate, existing oversight. It includes coordination mechanisms to avoid unnecessary overlap.

You have also heard the criticism that the commissioner would have no teeth. Respectfully, such criticism risks dismissing the accountability role that independent agents of Parliament are meant to play by providing Parliament with the information needed to hold the government to account through independent audits and public reports to Parliament with a focus on results.

One particularity of this oversight model is that indigenous modern treaty partners themselves will provide additional accountability. We will be tracking progress closely and ensuring that reports are acted upon.

Modern treaties are living commitments that span governments and generations.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Excuse me for a moment.

Is there an interpretation problem?

Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC

Mr. Chair, the interpretation cut out.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Is it working?

Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC

Yes, it's working now.

Noon

Chief of Behchoko, Tlicho Government

Chief Bertha Rabesca Zoe

Bill C-10 is Parliament's opportunity to put in place an oversight mechanism that will support treaty implementation, regardless of who is in power. This is the type of consistency we need and deserve.

In closing, we cannot fully implement our treaties alone. It is by working together that we can unlock the full potential of the treaties and of modern treaty nations to contribute to Canada's shared prosperity.

I hope that all parties can understand the importance of Bill C-10.

On behalf of the Tlicho Government, I urge you all to support this bill and help make our vision of timely, effective and full treaty implementation a reality.

Mahsi. Thank you.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Before we go to the Conservatives' first questions with Mr. Schmale, I want to acknowledge that MP Bob Zimmer is here. I want to thank him for his leadership during this tragic time.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

Noon

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

I don't want to take up too much time, Chair, but I want to thank all of you who have reached out with so many emails of condolences and prayers for the community and for me. It's very appreciated. Some of these times are very dark, so to see an email from a colleague is so appreciated.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you for your leadership, your faith and your strength.

MP Schmale, go ahead.

Noon

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

Thank you to the witnesses.

This is a topic that we've heard lots of testimony on. I'm very interested in digging down on it.

To reiterate what we've said on this side of the House during this whole process, we agree with the diagnosis, but we have some issues with the prescription. We understand and completely agree that Canada has not lived up to its word of “treaty”—traditional, modern or otherwise—over successive governments. This is not a Liberal and Conservative issue. This is governments in general failing to live up to their signature. We agree with all that, and we would like to see it get better.

We have some concerns with the consequences piece of this legislation. There doesn't seem to be—other than naming and shaming—a piece that has any.... If a department does not follow the word, what happens? The same kind of thing happens with an Auditor General report, whether it be on housing or clean drinking water. We've had so many reports from this committee, but the failures still continue along the line. Nothing seems to change.

While this piece of legislation does create an office and an agent of Parliament that can then zero in on certain issues specifically—whereas the Auditor General maybe has a broader reach—other than a report being tabled in Parliament, which the Auditor General has done, other than naming and shaming and other than maybe presenting facts or laying out an argument for potentially more court cases.... The whole argument was to get rid of these court cases. We've determined through testimony, at least on this side, that the court cases probably won't be stopped because it's basically presenting a case for nations to take the government to court.

Chief Rabesca Zoe, you basically said that this time will be different. Maybe you can elaborate as to how or why this time will be different.

12:05 p.m.

Chief of Behchoko, Tlicho Government

Chief Bertha Rabesca Zoe

We're no stranger to court cases. There are ample court cases in Canada about litigation on indigenous rights, treaties, land claim agreements, self-government and so forth. We have section 35 and so on.

Modern treaties create certainty. However, if there is no oversight, especially with the Crown in right of Canada in this case, we will continue the way we are. It's a whole-of-government approach when it comes to treaty implementation. It's not just one department. We've been saying that.

An MTIO was created. It's more like a policy type of entity. Oversight with a treaty commissioner would make sure that Parliament has oversight through this office. Reports will be tabled, and at the LCAC with treaties, we'll make sure that what was committed to and the obligations are met.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

How would you do that? We've had many reports. Don't get me wrong. I'm trying to help improve the bill where we can.

You talked about a whole-of-government approach. I would say there has been documented failure over 150-plus years in health care, education, housing and procurement. It just seems that every department continues to fail. I think it's the machinery of government that's the broken system, because that's the only constant in the path we're taking here.

We have an Auditor General who has tabled many reports on all of the things I've just described. Parliament asks the government questions in question period or in a committee setting like this. The media maybe covers it for a bit. What happens next?

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

You have 30 seconds to answer.

12:05 p.m.

Chief of Behchoko, Tlicho Government

Chief Bertha Rabesca Zoe

Well, I think what we're proposing here is that we work collaboratively on this bill. We're not strangers to collaboratively drafting legislation, especially in our Northwest Territories. This is where we come together as treaty partners to improve what isn't working—or try to improve what isn't working—and we are reaching out to this government, to this Parliament.

Treaties shouldn't be blaming or shaming. They shouldn't be about party lines. We're coming to you to say, “Let's fix this together.” Let's create something together that will make sure that as treaty partners, regardless of which party is in power—as you know, whoever is in power represents the Crown—we live up to those obligations and we work together. Here, we're giving you something for you to live by so that we can all work together to make sure it works.

It is a systemic problem within government, and it's been like that for years. We know that. It's a broken system, and this is a way to make sure treaty obligations are committed to or followed through on so that Canada prospers at the end of the day, because we're all working together. As I said—

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much. That's great.

12:05 p.m.

Chief of Behchoko, Tlicho Government

Chief Bertha Rabesca Zoe

—we have more than 50% of the land mass.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much.

We have MP Lavack for six minutes.

Ginette Lavack Liberal St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very grateful to the witnesses for being here and participating today.

As everyone knows, we've been working on creating a commissioner position for some time. For more than 20 years, we've been waiting for this kind of tool to support the implementation of modern treaties. Knowing that we still have work to do, we can always work on the statutes we create and improve them, but at least it's a start. We could put this tool in place right now to support treaty implementation.

Also, we've heard a lot about the difference between a commissioner and the Auditor General. I think that having someone whose only job is to study treaties and ensure they're actioned is a first step. It allows us to study the issue very closely to see what needs to be done and what the next steps are. That, in and of itself, is different from other tools and other government entities involved in implementing these treaties.

Chief Rabesca Zoe and Mr. Irngaut, can you share your points of view in a little more detail? Do you really believe that there would be a difference between a commissioner and other tools or other government entities?