Evidence of meeting #25 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was implementation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

V. Wright  Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Chief Paul John Murdoch  Cree Nation Government
Gastant' Aucoin  Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council
Gilbert  Director, Modern Treaty Management, British Columbia, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 25 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

First of all, we recognize that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. Chi-meegwetch.

Pursuant to the order of the House, the committee is continuing its study of Bill C-10, an act respecting the commissioner for modern treaty implementation.

I would like to welcome everyone.

As an individual, we have David Wright, associate professor, faculty of law, University of Calgary. Welcome.

From the Cree Nation Government, we have Grand Chief Paul Murdoch by video conference. Hello, Chief.

We have Duane Gastant' Aucoin, executive councillor, Teslin Tlingit Council. He is also on video conference. Welcome to you, Duane.

We have Lori on video conference. She's been joining us frequently throughout this study. We welcome her as well.

Let's proceed with the presentations.

You will have five minutes each. I will remind you when you have 30 seconds to wrap up. If you haven't finished your thoughts, you can add information during questions and answers.

Let's start with David Wright from the faculty of law, University of Calgary.

Thank you.

David V. Wright Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, members of the committee, fellow witnesses and officials. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today regarding Bill C-10.

My name is David Wright. I'm a law professor with the University of Calgary's faculty of law. I appear before you as an individual, although I understand my name was put forward by the Land Claims Agreements Coalition as someone who has worked, researched and written in this area extensively.

Prior to my academic appointment, I held several roles, including legal counsel for the Gwich'in Tribal Council—for whom I still act from time to time—and lawyer and auditor for the federal commissioner of the environment and sustainable development, housed in the Office of the Auditor General, for five years. This latter role, in particular, informs my perspectives today.

My opening comments complement those of the esteemed witnesses you have heard from already, including indigenous leaders in modern treaty contexts across Canada. In these opening comments, I offer three interrelated perspectives to assist this committee in situating Bill C-10 in the broader law policy and institutional landscape for modern treaty implementation.

The first of these is follow-through. Bill C-10 can be seen as the federal government's simply following through on an existing commitment to create such an institution. Indigenous modern treaty partners have called for the creation of this institution since 2003, including tabling the formal proposal by the Land Claims Agreements Coalition in 2017. In recent years, the federal government has been a constructive partner in pursuing this agenda, articulating this in several documents, including the 2023 modern treaty implementation policy and the 2023-28 UNDRIP action plan, chapter 5. The commitment has also been reiterated by a prime minister and several ministers in the years since 2023. In light of these clearly articulated commitments and intentions of the federal government, Bill C-10 represents a rare and important opportunity to simply follow through on this important shared Crown-indigenous objective.

The second perspective is a whole-of-government approach. The commissioner is a key missing piece in the federal government's stated intention to take a whole-of-government approach to modern treaty implementation. For more than a decade, beginning with the 2015 cabinet directive put in place by the Harper administration, led by former minister Valcourt, the federal government has committed to taking a whole-of-government approach to modern treaty implementation. The commitment has been repeated, of course, many times—for example, in the 2015 statement of principles on modern treaty implementation, numerous departmental reports and the aforementioned collaborative modern treaty implementation policy.

The whole-of-government approach—as you've heard—is required because treaties cumulatively include thousands of obligations the Crown must fulfill. Those Crown modern treaty obligations reside not with any single government department but with the Crown as a whole. Because no single department can meaningfully ensure that this whole-of-government approach is fulfilled, implementation challenges are systemic and stubborn. As such, this commissioner would fill an important institutional gap by ensuring that sustained independent oversight focuses on implementation and getting better information, in order to guide the Crown-indigenous modern treaty relationships. The powers and authorities set out in Bill C-10 offer a very important bird's-eye view with sightlines that don't exist elsewhere in the government.

The third and final perspective is deference to the existing text version of Bill C-10. Bill C-10 really does represent an exemplary approach to collaborative Crown-indigenous codevelopment of legislation, leading to—as you've heard from numerous witnesses—broad support across indigenous modern treaty parties, meaning that the text of the present version deserves strong deference. I think most would agree that the process was one of the very finest examples of legislative codevelopment with the federal government. I commend all the officials involved in the exercise. Bill C-10 is the outcome of this collaborative process. Modern treaty parties put their trust in the process, engaged in good faith and endorsed the tabled version without amendment.

It is important to acknowledge that amendments at this stage would essentially amount to unilateral change by the Crown. Such unilateral acts are precisely part of the problem in this historically fraught Crown-indigenous relationship. To amend at this late stage would be contrary to nation-to-nation dealings, the shared objective of reconciliation, and the spirit and intent of the aforementioned policies and modern treaties themselves.

As a final closing comment, let me step back for a second and say that, from my perspective, the commissioner would help everybody do their jobs better. In my experience with the federal environment commissioner, most audits are quite collaborative with departments and officials, including very senior officials. They quickly realize that there's a shared interest in continual improvement. The mere existence of the commissioner's office would likely help all departments and officials up their game. From there, the reports and recommendations would provide a robust, substantiated body of information and findings to guide and inform forward progress in pursuit of fulfilling treaty objectives and the shared goal of reconciliation.

Thanks very much.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Grand Chief Murdoch, who's online.

Grand Chief Paul John Murdoch Cree Nation Government

[Witness spoke in Cree]

[English]

I'll keep my comments relatively short. They're pretty much in line with Mr. Wright's presentation, although I doubt I'll sound as eloquent.

I'm a recently elected grand chief. This is my first time in office. I was elected in July. I am grand chief of nine communities and two emergent communities.

I want to share something that happened at the very beginning of my term. Being relatively new to the office and having worked mostly as an attorney, I had a pretty narrow view of the challenges our communities faced. Quickly, on seeing the social problems we were dealing with—problems with overcrowding and housing, employment problems with our exploding population and the challenges of holding on to our culture and language—I called a meeting quite early on with all of my chiefs. I was feeling a little overwhelmed. This wasn't at all what I was expecting.

Even though we spent all day talking about heartbreaking issues, I was really surprised at the optimism of my chiefs and my staff. I wondered what was going on. It took me a little while to realize.... One of my fellow chiefs pulled me aside and took me under their wing. This is when I saw that this year, we celebrate the 50th anniversary of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, which has been amended 30 times. We have the Cree-Canada new relationship agreement and the Cree-Canada governance agreement. These have tools that allow my chiefs and my staff to look at challenges we're facing with optimism and a sense of empowerment.

When I saw that this hearing was coming up, and in reading the brief that was tabled before and looking at all the exchanges that were happening, I thought it was important to point out...I love that the word “relationship” is being used so much. In the Cree nation, we're proud of all the relationships we've had in the past. We're proud of our current relationship with the Government of Canada.

This commissioner and the way this bill was developed would allow us to stand shoulder to shoulder with Canada, instead of face to face, where we're each alone on either side.

The Cree Nation Government made a submission in June 2024. I didn't agree with every recommendation made. I guess it's good that I wasn't a grand chief then, because attorneys who represent themselves have an idiot for a client, apparently. The ones I did agree with, you accepted, so that was great news.

In closing, I want to say that in looking at the documentation and speaking to my staff, I was very proud of how this law has come about. In a world defined by division and negativity, it's important to take this opportunity to express gratitude for the collaboration in how we got here—specifically to Mat Sargent, senior director of the modern treaty and self-government policy directorate, and his team at the policy and partnerships branch at CIRNAC.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much, and congratulations, Grand Chief, on your recent election.

Next we go to the executive councillor from Yanyeidi.

You will have five minutes for a presentation.

Duane Gastant' Aucoin Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council

Gunalchéesh. Merci. Thank you. Meegwetch. Wela'lin.

[Witness spoke in Tlingit ]

[English]

Hello, everybody. My name is Duane Gastant' Aucoin. I am of the inland Tlingit nation. My moiety is Wolf and my clan is Yanyeidi. I am a white man's child. My dad's family, Acadian people, immigrated from France in 1640 and settled in what is now Port Royal. I am from Teslin, Yukon, and I am a guest of the Algonquins in the Ottawa Valley.

I am not a newbie. I've been on the council since 2009. This is my 17th year on the executive council.

The Teslin Tlingit Council is a modern treaty nation. We signed our agreement in 1993. It came into full effect in 1995. It's an amazing agreement. It's a sign of reconciliation with the Crown and indigenous peoples. Unfortunately, we have issues with implementation. It's great on paper, but when it comes to being implemented, that's when the falling down happens. Unfortunately, the Teslin Tlingit Council has had to take the Crown to court a few times. Back in 2015, we took the Harper Conservatives to court because they unilaterally changed the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Act. Three years later, we took the Trudeau Liberals to court because they weren't honouring the financial transfer agreement.

The only ones we haven't taken the court yet—we're equal opportunity—are the NDP, because they've never been in federal power, but we might be taking the B.C. NDP to court. There we go; they're not off the hook.

I was once talking to Andrew Scheer, then the Conservative leader, back when it looked as though he might win the election in 2019. In my quick conversation with him, I explained who I was and what nation I was from. I told him that the message I had for him and for whoever sits in the seat of government was this: We don't care who sits in that seat—Liberal, Conservative or NDP—because we have a treaty with the Crown. Whoever sits in the seat has the duty to live up to the treaty we signed with the Crown and to implement it. It's pretty simple.

One thing we see with this modern treaty commissioner is the ability not to go to court—the ability to try to work things out without having to go to litigation. Litigation is always there. We have no pipe dreams that the modern treaty commissioner will be solving all problems, walking on water and raising the dead, but we do have high hopes that this will improve the relationship we have with the Crown—again, no matter who sits in that seat—without having to go to the courts. Let's work together as equal partners. Let's hold each other up.

As was said before, our treaty is not with Indigenous Services. Our treaty is with the Crown and with all of government. Hopefully, this modern treaty commissioner will help improve the situation and help improve the lives of our people with the Teslin Tlingit Council and within the Yukon as well, because these treaties will benefit everyone.

Gunalchéesh. Merci. Thank you. Wela'lin. Meegwetch.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much for sharing your years of experience with us today.

We will go to rounds of questions. The first round is six minutes.

MP Schmale will go first for the Conservatives, please.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses, who are here for this very important study.

For those who have been following this study, we've been saying quite often that we agree with the diagnosis, but we have a few issues with the prescription. That, in particular, as was pointed out by our previous witness, is the implementation and the consequences of non-action.

Unfortunately, we have seen this with governments, Liberal and Conservative, for way too many years, so I understand the frustration on the side of the partners who helped codraft this legislation, as well as the excitement to see it to the finish line.

Our concern is that we're not sure, based on actions of many previous governments, whether there will be any actual follow-up or any changes within the various government departments that are pointed out in a report by a modern treaty commissioner.

The example we've been given is the Auditor General, who is an agent of Parliament. He or she will table a report in Parliament and talk about it for a week, maybe. The media will talk about it, and then it will disappear and nothing will be followed up on. Then the Auditor General will come out with another report on a follow-up of the previous report, and we'll still be dealing with the same issues they pointed out in previous reports.

The part we're looking at is the consequences piece. What can we put in this legislation, if anything, to ensure that the government is living up to its signature?

I'll start with you, Professor, and then we'll move on to Executive Councillor Aucoin.

8:30 a.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual

David V. Wright

Thank you for the question. It's a very important one.

The act is structured on parliamentary accountability, which is as you described, sir.

I would suggest that the reports do carry a lot of weight, some more than others. Of course, some reports, for example, those by the Auditor General and the federal environment commissioner—speak by analog for now—have moderately critical findings. Others have extremely important and consequential findings.

The former are kind of good news, because they mean that things are going reasonably well. The latter can be quite problematic, and they tend to get a lot more oxygen over time and lead to results and changes in the departments.

I'm going to share only things in the public domain. For example, years ago I was involved in an audit on the offshore petroleum and energy boards on the east coast, soon after the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe in the Gulf of Mexico. We made some very pointed, consequential findings, and, sure enough, changes happened, and it was a measurable result. I would expect to see the same in this context with the commissioner in place.

You point out that follow-up audits are possible, so that's a way to keep the issues on the front burner. There's really no limit to how those take place.

The last point I would make, in the interest of time, is that this falls into a different context from that of the Auditor General, who's a generalist. This commissioner would be a specialist and be in a better position to keep the pressure on. You'll see woven into the act a number of different ongoing ways to keep engaged with modern treaty holders and indigenous modern treaty partners. In this context, indigenous modern treaty partners will be able to help keep things on the front burner and keep pressure applied so that there are changes across departments in the interest of the whole-of-government approach that I mentioned in my second point.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

Okay.

I have a follow-up, but I will get back to you. I want to hear from the executive councillor.

8:35 a.m.

Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council

Duane Gastant' Aucoin

The Tlingit nation used to build totem poles for people who didn't live up to their word. We called them “shame totems” so everybody could see. It helped inspire the person whom the totem pole was made for to do the right thing and fix it. Once this was done, the pole was cut down.

The modern treaty commissioner would be similar. It would be a shame totem, in a way, if there were a fault and the Crown was not living up to the treaties we signed. All of you are politicians. None of you like bad press. This would be bad press for the government.

Also, Teslin Tlingit Council retains the right to go to litigation if things still don't work. If the modern treaty commissioner pointed something out and we tried to resolve it and it still didn't get to resolution, there would always be litigation, but it would help strengthen our case against the Crown if the Crown were not living up to our agreements and the modern treaty commissioner supported us as well.

Thank you.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

Okay, so we agree on the name and shame part, and I enjoy your example. At the same time, we're still potentially going back to court again, are we not? I think everyone is sick of court cases and ongoing litigation. Is there another idea that you may have—and I'm putting you on the spot, so you can follow up in writing if you come to it at two in the morning—that points to holding departments accountable? We get tons of reports. The defence department is doing this, and the housing department is doing this. It goes on and on.

Other than the naming and shaming, there really aren't consequences. We try to avoid the court. Is there anything else you have that we could put on the table?

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

It will have to be in writing, as MP Schmale has identified, because we're out of time. Thank you.

Okay, next on the list we have MP Eric St-Pierre.

First of all, welcome. You will have six minutes for questions and answers.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for allowing me to sub in to replace my colleague MP Brendan Hanley, who couldn't be with us today.

Grand Chief John Paul Murdoch, first, I offer a very belated congratulations on your successful appointment as grand chief of the Eeyou Istchee last summer. It's been a big transition for you from law, I imagine. I'm also a recovering lawyer and new to politics, so I know the feeling. I'm quite confident, Mr. Murdoch, that the Wemindji Eeyou spirit and your commitment to community and nation will serve the Cree of Eeyou Istchee very well.

Mr. Murdoch, you might remember me. I was a student of yours back in 2008. I was studying at McGill law, and I spent two weeks in Mistissini and took a summer course with Professor Sébastien Grammond, who is now a Federal Court judge. I have very fond memories of the time in Mistissini, of learning about the James Bay agreement, the Paix des Braves and your experience working at a certain firm in Montreal with certain lawyers. I'm not going to recall the past, but—

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON

Name and shame.

Voices

Oh, oh!

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Name and shame, maybe not; it's being recorded. We'll leave it there.

I used to call you Maître Murdoch, but if I may, I'll call you John Paul or JP.

I have a few more grey hairs. I can assure you I dye my hair grey to appear a little wiser.

It's very nice to meet you again, and congratulations on the new role.

Maybe I'll ask you a straight question about Bill C-10. Bill C-10 is meant to provide oversight and ensure that the federal government fulfills its obligations under modern treaties. How do you feel, Maître Murdoch, or Grand Chief Murdoch, Bill C-10 fares in terms of meeting obligations under modern treaties and especially with regard to the Eeyou Istchee?

8:35 a.m.

Cree Nation Government

Grand Chief Paul John Murdoch

Thank you very much for the question.

I was wondering when this was going to happen, when I was going to run into a former student. Yes, there are great memories from that experience. It was the very first cohort we did. I was quite proud of what we achieved and what all the students went on to do.

It might not have come across in my introduction, as I was trying to keep it within the five minutes, but getting to where we are now in the new relationship agreement we have, the Cree self-governance agreement with Canada, wasn't an easy path. When I first started working, we had 25 lawsuits going. Every single chapter of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement was subject to litigation.

When things really changed was when there was an honest conversation. Oddly enough, related to the previous question, we had started our discussions under—I think Paul Martin was prime minister back then—the Liberal government. We made significant headway in coming up with an agreement. Then there was an election. There was a change, and we ended up signing the agreement with the Conservatives. I'm especially proud of the fact that it transcended two different governments. I think this was because everybody agreed: the leadership on the indigenous side, the leadership on the Canadian side and, more importantly, the civil servants on both sides. It's something we tend to forget. I have civil servants as well. I have an executive director who just retired, and he was executive director for 35 years. We do have professional civil servants.

It's about holding both of us accountable. That's what I meant by shoulder to shoulder. It was when Canada recognized, “Okay, we can't do this on our own; we're actually no good at implementing treaties on our own.” When you think of the concept of a treaty as a document that enshrines a relationship, if you assume that you're going to take responsibility for the whole thing and you're going to do the whole thing on your own, you're going to be accountable on your own, of course it's not going to work. It's a relationship. It's not a transaction.

This is why I was more complimentary about the process of arriving at Bill C-10. It's very important that the mechanism put in place operates in parallel to the existing treaty relationship. If the relationship is poor, well, the parallel vehicle will be that much more important. If the relationship is working well, then the parallel path can be complementary.

This is how I see Bill C-10 working in our modern context.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

That's great. Thanks for the comprehensive response.

I have about a minute and 15 seconds, so I'll move on to Mr. Aucoin. Can you comment quickly, in about a minute, on how you see Bill C-10 building trust with indigenous communities?

8:40 a.m.

Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council

Duane Gastant' Aucoin

The development of Bill C-10 is an example of reconciliation. We worked together with the government to come up with this act. It wasn't the government saying, “This is what we think is best for you.” We worked together with the Crown, and we said, “This is the solution we think would work for both sides.”

The very fact that we have Bill C-10 is an example of that reconciliation.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

That's great. Thank you.

Professor Wright, you mentioned that the commissioner would up their game to fulfill treaty obligations near the end of your testimony. Can you elaborate quickly on that, as well as who benefits from Bill C-10?

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

You have 20 seconds.

8:40 a.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual

David V. Wright

I'll be brief.

Executive Councillor Aucoin mentioned the trust building and the process of building the act. I would build on the comments about how this operates in parallel. You could think of the departments as upping their game in the shadow of the existence of the commissioner. The mere existence of the commissioner casts a shadow—a positive shadow, that is—across the bureaucracy. This helps everyone do better, knowing that a heavier hand lurks, if warranted.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank Grand Chief Murdoch, Councillor Aucoin and Professor Wright for being with us. This is the final hour of our study of Bill C‑10 before we go to clause-by-clause.

At the last meeting, someone said something that I found very interesting, and I'd like to hear each of you respond to it. Someone said that each department would have its own interpretation of the treaties. Obviously, that would cause problems and delays.

Mr. Chair, I see that some witnesses have not yet put on their earpieces for interpretation. Can I start over? They weren't prepared, unfortunately.