Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 8th, 2025

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you.

This is another example of an audit where we found problems that had already been raised in a previous audit. The departments had accepted the recommendations we made at the time, and when we went back to do other audits on similar subjects—it wasn't a follow-up—we found the same problems.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In the context of such an audit, we think it's important that we submit a report to Parliament that mentions the shortcomings. It's important that committees like this study these findings and ask tough questions of the department.

Exactly, except that they took your recommendations but didn't implement them, since we ended up with the same report. Indeed, parliamentarians have a role to play, particularly those in the opposition, but the government has failed in this context.

You state in your report that Public Safety had entered into self-administered service agreements or tripartite agreements. However, a number of communities aren't served and fall under provincial jurisdiction, such as the community of Long Point, in my region.

Who ultimately pays for those services?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know the specific details for that community, but there are agreements with the provinces. When there is a provincial police force, it is different from other provinces where there is none. Three provinces are different, and Quebec is one of them. The way these provinces are funded is different. That's a question you would probably have to ask the RCMP.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That's interesting. We see that if the federal government doesn't do its job with indigenous police forces, the provinces, particularly Quebec, end up footing the bill.

Since the provinces are paying, why is the Department of Public Safety unable to increase its percentage or participation?

The provinces spend more to cover the costs of unserved nations, or rather to cover the costs of certain services. What do you think of the excuse given by the Department of Public Safety for not investing in the provinces because the provinces aren't providing enough money?

I'm going to quote Shawn Tupper, former deputy minister of public safety, who testified at the public accounts committee on April 30, 2024. He said:

We are stuck in a situation where a province can choose not to match the funds, so we can't flow the funds. It may be, as we've seen in recent years, simply a labour market choice—the RCMP are unable to fully staff their vacant positions.

This is a systemic and real problem.

How can we accept the fact that the federal government is disengaged because it hasn't succeeded in either its recruitment strategy or its funding strategy?

[Andrew Hayes]

That's a question for the department, but I can add that it's a cost-shared funding program. With respect to the first nations policing program, we made a recommendation to the department that it is important for the federal government to find solutions to disburse available federal funds when provinces and territories are unable to provide their share of funding. We think this is part of the question that was asked earlier about equity.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You said that $13 million of program funds related to the 2022-23 fiscal year had not been spent. In 2023-24, it was $45 million. If we follow the same logic, should we expect that there will still be money lapsed in 2024-25? Is it a lack of will on the part of the federal government, if I can put it that way, or is it the fact that it is unable to fully discharge its responsibilities?

[Andrew Hayes]

I want to clarify that the funds mentioned in our report for the 2023-24 fiscal year were from October 2023. We looked at the department's reports and found that almost $48 million had not been spent. It is likely that some amounts won't have been spent in 2025. We don't have that information for you today. Those funds will probably be tabled in the public accounts in a few weeks, I think. This is a worrisome situation, because the purpose of these funds is to improve the safety and security of communities.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I get the impression that the pressure to fund police services rests, in a significant way, on the provinces, since this is their responsibility.

How do we align that? Would it ultimately be easier to transfer the money to the provinces? Would it lead to better outcomes? Would it increase the effectiveness of the programs if the provinces had only one way to spend the money? Would that help the services provided on the ground in indigenous communities, particularly those that are less served or unserved?

[Andrew Hayes]

I think that's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Please give a brief answer.

[Andrew Hayes]

Okay.

I think that's a policy question, so the question should be put to the department. However, I would say that the federal government has an indigenous mandate, so the jurisdiction is shared.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you.

Ms. Lavack, you have the floor.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses for sharing their comments with us today.

In your opening remarks, you made a comment—

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

I am sorry. Mr. Morin is first.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm happy to be here, finally, to get in some dialogue with the committee. It's mid-October.

Thank you to the AG team for coming today.

I want to express a little bit of disappointment, though. Originally, the public safety minister was supposed to attend today. Of course, he is the previous ISC minister. I'm sure he could have provided critical information to this dialogue today that's so important to indigenous communities. I want to express that disappointment. It sends the wrong message to first nations, indigenous, Métis and Inuit communities about how important this conversation is to the government.

Thank you to the AG team for making it a priority today.

One of the most tragic events in public safety for indigenous communities happened in September 2022, when there were 11 stabbing deaths and multiple other injuries on the James Smith Cree Nation. I spoke to Chief Kirby Constant from James Smith Cree Nation this week. I asked him if there has been a change in the approach of the government over the last three years since the tragedy happened. I want to quote Chief Kirby Constant's feedback. He said, “James Smith Cree Nation needs to move beyond the one-size-fits-all approach where Public Safety or RCMP dictate the model. We want our own policing framework under our own control and budget, not as an 'add-on' to federal or provincial programs.” Those are the words of Chief Constant from James Smith Cree Nation.

Can the Auditor General comment on how Chief Constant's views back up specific failures of the Public Safety ministry and the RCMP cited in your 2024 report on the first nations and Inuit policing program, specifically financial...lack of equitable funding implementation and lack of accountability for program effectiveness?

[Andrew Hayes]

In our 2024 report, we found that the department had not engaged with the first nations and Inuit communities in a way that would have allowed or supported meaningful contributions by those communities. For example, the funding decisions had already been made before the first nations communities or Inuit communities were consulted or engaged. It is important to engage with those communities before those decisions are finalized.

The other thing I would point to from our report—and we've made recommendations about this—is the importance of understanding and training frontline workers and officers on the cultural traditions' importance and sensitivities for specific communities. To talk about the tailoring of services requires a deep understanding of the needs of the community.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

I certainly hear from Chief Constant that he wants a different formula. Your report says things have to change. On the Conservative side of things, we always support self-determination and giving that responsibility back to the communities. That's where the solutions lie.

Something this report talks about a lot is self-administered police service agreements. I saw a lot of failures on the RCMP tripartite model. Hopefully, those get fixed one day. Can you comment on whether you had an opinion, some data or some feedback on the self-administered policing agreements? I didn't see as much push-back on those, and that speaks to Chief Constant's position that he wants to have more of a self-administered agreement with the Government of Canada to do his own policing. Are those agreements better than the current tripartite models?

[Andrew Hayes]

That's a question that would need to be asked of a community in particular. I think there are communities that probably prefer that model, while there are others that would prefer the community tripartite agreement model.

In our view, it's incumbent on the government, in partnership with the provincial government and the communities, to identify what model might work best for them.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

I have one final quick question, Chair.

During the last fiscal year that you studied, how much money went unspent that could have gone to indigenous communities for direct policing investment?

[Andrew Hayes]

The most recent numbers we have come from the departmental report of 2023-24, which said $48 million was left unspent. I should give the department a bit of room here, because some of that money could be repurposed to future years. I don't know the answer to that question.

That's something you could ask the department, but it could be as high as $48 million.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Certainly, there's a crisis right now. [Inaudible—Editor] spent and invested.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Madame Lavack.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Take two.

Once again, I'd like to thank the witnesses for appearing today.

As you've mentioned, the report highlights the lack of information necessary to measure program effectiveness. There are no objectives and there's no way to determine whether those objectives are being met.

How does this lack of information on program effectiveness affect the well-being of first nations and Inuit communities?

[Andrew Hayes]

This finding matters a lot to us. Performance measures are important in program management. The department cannot improve this program if it doesn't have the necessary information regarding the agreements. Moreover, it has to monitor the RCMP's performance to make sure the requirements of the agreement are met. It's an important element.

I can't say whether there's a direct link with the safety and security of the communities, but without that information, the department can't change or improve things.