Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 8th, 2025

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Have you recommended certain measures in your report? Could you tell us about them?

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes, we made recommendations. They are similar to the ones we made in 2014 to improve performance measures. The department is responsible for putting methods in place to measure performance, but we do think that's an important recommendation.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

You have a bit more time. Are you done? Okay. Thank you.

Monsieur Lemire, you have two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing, Mr. Hayes. Once again, the quality of your report is surprising. In your report, you mention that Public Safety Canada lacks information technology systems to track spending related to the first nations and Inuit policing program. The deputy minister, Shawn Tupper, confirmed this at a meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. He said, “We have simply not been able to sustain an IT system that allows us to do the kind of data analytics that we need to do.”

Do you know whether that's still the case? Do other programs or departments have the same issue? Can you elaborate on that?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know whether it's still the case. However, it's crucial for the department to know where the money is going. I was surprised to see that the department couldn't tell us exactly how much of the program funding had gone where.

I don't know what the department has done since we published our report almost 18 months ago. You'd have to ask them.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

We are indeed looking forward to asking them.

I'd like once again to quote the deputy minister, Shawn Tupper. During his April 30, 2024, appearance, he said:

I won't defend my IT system in the department. The department, over time, has not made the investments it needs to make, and those are oftentimes expensive investments. We have simply not been able to sustain an IT system that allows us to do the kind of data analytics that we need to do. This is something that I am looking at now and trying to figure out ways so that I can find the cash to make that kind of investment. That's a department-wide challenge that I have.

Based on your analysis, are there other elements we should focus on when it comes to the management of IT systems at the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know of another system like that at the department. We did, however, publish a report on the government's information technology systems and found that many were outdated. We made recommendations to the federal government to fix those issues.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Hopefully, the costs won't balloon as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Mr. Zimmer, you're next. You have five minutes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I don't think I'll need all five minutes.

Once again, thank you, Deputy Auditor General, for your report. It's very thorough, as usual. We appreciate that.

Let me refer to page 15, section 3.56, where you state the following:

We found that, although the RCMP had acknowledged broader staffing challenges, it had no national staffing approach to fill its obligations under the community tripartite agreements as police service providers. RCMP divisions had to work among themselves to address resource gaps. RCMP officials told us that the RCMP struggled to attract new recruits to community tripartite agreement positions due to factors such as remoteness.

I'm up in the north quite a bit. I've been to Cambridge Bay, even just a month ago, to see the needs or the lack of certain resources first-hand. It seems that the RCMP is lacking sufficient resources, and it's a problem. When I was in Cambridge Bay, the first concern brought to me by Canadian rangers, when they met me, wasn't community policing. It was actually the concern that their hunting firearms would be prohibited—for instance, the SKS, which they use thoroughly for hunting—and would be confiscated by this Liberal government.

My question for you is very much related to community policing. Considering that RCMP management in Ottawa can't ensure that the basic policing needs of first nations and Inuit are met, do you think it's a good use of manpower and money to go after law-abiding firearms owners, many of whom are Inuit Canadian rangers, when they clearly are not the problem?

[Andrew Hayes]

That is not a subject matter that we cover in our report. What we did cover is that the RCMP should be engaged when the department is making agreements that will have an impact on the staffing levels or the resourcing for the RCMP.

In terms of RCMP resources, I'm sure the commissioner might be in a good position to answer questions about that. However, we did note that, because the RCMP wasn't able to staff all of those—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have to interrupt the witness. There's no interpretation. Let's give the interpreters a minute to fix things.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I didn't get the interpretation, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Can we check on that? Can everyone turn their microphones off? Thank you.

Please continue.

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you.

Our report focused on the RCMP's resourcing in the context of some of the spending. In addition to the comments about the recruitment strategy, the RCMP left $3.6 million unspent, and that would have been used for police officers under the community tripartite agreements. In terms of—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I guess, to be more specific, the point is that we've seen money left on the table by the RCMP in Ottawa, the administrative...the managers who are doing that. The point I was making is that we already have a limited police force staff. We are already seeing that it's an issue, based on what you said in your report, and now that limited staff.... It's even hard to fill the jobs. There are many needed positions that haven't been filled. Those police officers, who are overtasked as it is, are now going to be given a new role in confiscating firearms across the territories.

I was going to ask you if you think that's a good use of police manpower and money.

[Andrew Hayes]

The question is really one of policy, and it would be for the government to engage with the RCMP about priorities. In the report, one of our recommendations is for the department, in this case, to engage with the RCMP about their priorities for the community tripartite agreements.

I wouldn't be in a position to comment on where the government should put its policies.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

I have one last comment. I would say that's something we can extrapolate and interpret based on what your report is saying. There are needs in the north. There are needs in first nations and Inuit communities, and this current Liberal government is going to give that already taxed resource more things to do in going after law-abiding firearms owners who, again, aren't the problem.

Thank you again, Auditor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Mr. Melillo, go ahead for one minute.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora—Kiiwetinoong, ON]

Chair, you're very gracious with that one minute. I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

It's the technical issues.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora—Kiiwetinoong, ON]

I appreciate our witnesses for being here.

What struck me earlier in the comments in this discussion was that there really haven't been updates to this policy since 1996. Obviously, a lot has changed in policing. There have been a number of reports from the Auditor General. There have been reports from this committee and many others from outside organizations calling for change and highlighting the gaps and the issues that exist, yet the government has not taken action. We've seen, over the course of time, the current government looking to create more officers and more commissioners to investigate things instead of just listening to the reports that are being brought forward.

What accountability is there for the government to move forward on these things? I ask because you've done a lot of great work highlighting these issues, yet the issues persist today.

I'm sorry for going over time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

It was only a bit.

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you for the question.

I'm aware of the debate that's happening on Bill C-10 and the creation of a new agent of Parliament. As the Office of the Auditor General, we are supportive of accountability mechanisms. As the Auditor General, we have a broad remit to audit basically anything that government spends money on. We will continue to focus on matters that relate to first nations and Inuit. Indeed, we have a few reports coming out in two weeks that I'm sure this committee will be interested in. That will continue, regardless of whether other accountability mechanisms are introduced.

I think what's maybe important to bring out is the role that committees can play in holding departments to account for the promises and commitments they make. In the public accounts committee, there are action plans that follow our reports. Those could be useful for the committee to look at, to identify what should be followed up on with the departments.