Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 24, 2025, the committee is commencing its study of indigenous policing and public safety.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. As an individual, we have Doris Bill, a former chief of the Kwanlin Dün First Nation. With us from Chiefs of Ontario, we have Ontario Regional Chief Abram Benedict. Thank you very much for being here. By video conference from the Sûreté du Québec, we have Robert Durant, captain and director of the Val-d’Or RCM service centre.

I want to make sure that people are adhering to the rules on interpretation devices. We've had some problems in the past. If you're not speaking, please make sure that the earpieces are on the little circle with the earpiece on it. Make sure your mics are off after you finish speaking. If you see any mics on around you, make sure they're off so that we don't get any feedback for the interpreters.

Thank you very much.

I would like to turn it over to the witnesses. We will hear them in the same order as I introduced them.

Please, go ahead, Doris.

[Doris Bill, Former Chief of Kwanlin Dün First Nation, As an Individual]

Good afternoon. Thank you for this opportunity.

Dä̀nnchʼe. My name is Doris Bill. I'm a former chief of the Kwanlin Dün First Nation. I served for nine years, from 2014 to 2023.

Kwanlin Dün is a self-governing first nation with over 1,000 citizens. Shortly after I was elected, our community was deeply shaken by the murder of an indigenous woman. On the heels of this, an elderly man was also murdered. Neither individual was a citizen of Kwanlin Dün, but their deaths had a devastating impact on our community nonetheless.

Living in the heart of Whitehorse has its challenges. At the time, most of the crime in Kwanlin Dün was not committed by our citizens, but as I previously stated, these events threw our community into a full-blown crisis. Women were sleeping with baseball bats by their beds. Elders were afraid to go out for walks. We had entire families sleeping in their basement because they were terrified. Citizens told us it was not a safe place to live.

We knew we had to do something, so we started by talking to our citizens about safety in our community. Our citizens told us they felt safer when there was somebody out there watching. Despite having the main RCMP detachment less than a mile away, they still felt unsafe and unprotected. Citizens feared calling the police or didn't trust that they would get justice. Some remembered the days when they were dragged to residential schools by the RCMP. They just did not like the western system of justice.

Using the information citizens gave us, combined with real-time statistics from the RCMP, bylaw and emergency services, the community safety officers, or CSO, program was created, becoming the eyes and ears of the community. The program is proactive, preventative, culturally appropriate and trauma-informed. It was built from the ground up, not from the top down. It is consistent with the TRC, the MMIWG action plan and the Yukon's MMIWG2S+ strategy.

The CSO program has saved lives. It has saved women from situations that could have turned out very badly. The CSO officers have the ability to respond early and de-escalate situations before they turn into a crisis. The program helps to rebuild the truth between the community and the RCMP. The CSOs are not focused on surveillance, enforcement or punishment. In our case, the CSO program is the conduit to all other agencies.

I believe the mainstream justice system needs to create the space for community-born safety initiatives like the community safety officers program. In the Yukon, we have circle sentencing and other forms of traditional justice initiatives developed by first nations people. If these initiatives were not in place, I believe incarceration rates of first nation people would be much higher.

While the CSO program has been successful, it has been without stable, equitable or legislative support. The funding and policy structures of the federal or territorial governments are not built for first nation approaches.

You will hear from the House of Wolf later on about the structure, what that structure could look like and how we can finally make safety equitable, accountable and, most of all, built by us. In the spirit of our agreements, we urge you to walk with us in this journey to bring back safety and trust to our communities.

I'm going to leave it there. I understand I only have five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much, Doris. You'll have plenty of time to expand during questions as well. Thank you very much.

Grand Chief Benedict, go ahead please.

[Regional Chief Abram Benedict, Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario]

Shé:kon sewakwé:kon.

Good afternoon to all of you. Thank you for the opportunity.

I am Abram Benedict. I am the Ontario regional chief representing the Chiefs of Ontario. The Chiefs of Ontario advocates and supports 133 first nations across Ontario.

There's an urgent crisis building in our communities. I'll begin with a stark reality. Just last week, Nishnawbe Aski Nation, which represents 49 northern Ontario first nation communities, declared a state of emergency after yet another drug-related shooting—this one in Ginoogaming First Nation, which left one person dead and another critically injured. This tragedy, sadly, underscores the escalating wave of gang violence and illegal drug trafficking devastating our first nations and our first nations in the north.

Perhaps one of the most devastating parts of this senseless tragedy is that it doesn't come as a surprise or a shock to anyone. We hear of these incidents on a weekly basis, sometimes more. As one first nation leader observed, if these events were happening in southern Ontario, the response would be immediate. For us, there is silence. In NAN territory alone, the police have recorded a 300% increase in cocaine and fentanyl seizures from 2023 to 2024. This is stark evidence of a growing crisis.

These stories, sadly, are not isolated. Some first nation communities face violent crime rates that are higher than the provincial averages, yet they must confront these threats with a fraction of police resources, often with just one officer for an entire community. This is a glaring double standard that exists in public safety forcing first nations to tolerate conditions that are unacceptable anywhere else. The consequences are measured in lives lost, community traumatization and a growing danger, which grows day by day.

In March 2024, the Auditor General found that Public Safety Canada had “poorly managed” the first nations and Inuit policing program and “did not work in partnership with Indigenous communities to provide equitable access to police services that are tailored to the needs of communities.” I know that first nation policing is different across the board. That's why it's important that it be tailored to the needs of those communities. The audit revealed that $13 million of programming funds intended for 2022-23 went unspent, even though our police services continue to be chronically underfunded.

The Auditor General officials reinforced these findings to the committee last week, noting that the program remains mismanaged and that neither Public Safety nor the RCMP has treated first nations as true partners. As a former grand chief of the community of Akwesasne, I can attest to partnerships between policing agencies and how extremely important they are. The community of Akwesasne, which I live in, borders Canada, the United States, Ontario and Quebec. I can tell you, on behalf of that community, their success in enforcement and keeping the community safe is built on relationships. For the RCMP and Public Safety not to value relationships with first nations or to treat them as partners is a failure.

For years, the government has pledged to fix first nation policing. In 2021, the public safety minister’s mandate letter talked about the codevelopment of legislation recognizing first nation policing as an essential service, yet rather than structural changes, we continue to see temporary, inadequate solutions. When emergencies arise, it is too often short-term funding patches or pilot projects when we instead need systemic reform.

First nation leaders and police chiefs are united in saying that piecemeal fixes are not enough. Leadership implores you. We need to make more than band-aid fixes. We need culturally grounded policing, major investments and structural changes. We need policing that revolves around community priorities and community traditions, and that is rooted in and has the confidence of their first nations. This starts with significant investments that are equitable for our communities.

Our officers and communities are doing everything they can to maintain safety. It is time for Canada to move beyond the rhetoric and deliver lasting changes. Our communities are requiring this.

In the face of inaction, Ontario first nations have put forward our own plan. At a special chiefs assembly in August 2025, Ontario chiefs unanimously passed the Chiefs of Ontario resolution 25/13S entitled “Fix the Federal Program for First Nations Policing”. This resolution calls on Canada to work with first nations to overhaul the program through first nations-led processes that address the specific needs of our communities. It calls for guaranteed adequate, effective and equitable policing for first nations, including policing rooted in our cultures and traditions, backed by funding to enforce first nations laws, bylaws and community safety measures. It calls to enact essential-service legislation that recognizes first nations police services as essential and affirms our jurisdiction over policing.

I want to reiterate that: jurisdiction. In order for communities to have self-determining rights to govern themselves and to have adequate, proper police services, there must be recognition of jurisdiction.

Ontario first nations are ready and willing partners in carrying this work out. I want to acknowledge the work that has been done thus far, but we have a lot more work to do. We need Ontario and Canada to show political willingness to work with us and finally fix a system that is broken.

I want to thank the committee for this opportunity. I'm here to reiterate that we must work together. The Government of Canada must continue to support first nations and acknowledge that first nations policing is an inherent jurisdiction that must be led by first nations communities.

Nya weh.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you, Grand Chief.

Now we go to Captain Durant for five minutes.

[Captain Robert Durant, Director of Val-d’Or RCM Service Centre, Sûreté du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, kwe .

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Captain Robert Durant, director of the Val-d'Or RCM Service Centre for the Sûreté du Québec. With great respect and appreciation, I thank you for having me here today to present to you an initiative that is very important to us, the joint indigenous community police station, which we commonly refer to as the PPCMA.

Before going into detail, allow me to share with you the values that guide our work: service, professionalism, respect, integrity and, above all, solidarity or mamawi, which means “together”. These values aren't just words; they are the foundation of our commitment to communities, particularly first nations, with whom we have built relationships of trust over the years. In Val-d'Or, we chose to do things differently. We decided to go outside the traditional framework and rethink our ways of responding to better meet the real needs of vulnerable people and members of indigenous communities. That means being present on the ground, listening and, above all, being close to people. This approach requires courage, flexibility and a sincere desire to change things.

Val-d'Or is a city facing a variety of social problems, including a vulnerable clientele who are experiencing social breakdown and are affected by addiction, mental health problems, poverty and homelessness. This vulnerable clientele includes a significant proportion of people from various first nations communities.

Faced with this reality, the Sûreté du Québec began working in 2015 to develop alternative solutions to ensure public safety, respond to vulnerable indigenous and non-indigenous clientele, actively participate in bringing people together and find alternative and sustainable solutions that align with the values and culture of the indigenous people and the residents of Val-d'Or, while also obeying current laws.

It was in this context that the Équipe mixte d'intervention-policiers, or EMIPIC, was born in November 2015. At the time, this team included a police officer and a social worker trained to work with vulnerable people, both indigenous and non-indigenous.

This team plays a critical role. They work with people in vulnerable situations to encourage quick referral to assistance resources tailored to their needs, so that their situation doesn't worsen. They also provide second-line response behind police officers in the Vallée-de-l'Or RCM when a situation involves a vulnerable, intoxicated or homeless person. In addition, they make it easier for homeless people and residents to live together in harmony. They also contribute to developing and implementing prevention strategies, particularly in relation to substance abuse, violence and homelessness. Finally, they defuse situations using an adapted and integrated community approach.

We quickly realized that EMIPIC was not enough to meet the growing demand, so we launched a pilot project in November 2016: the joint indigenous community police station, or PPCMA, which is located in downtown Val-d'Or. The PPCMA's response philosophy is rooted in partnership, in order to identify a joint response through co-operation and concerted action among the stakeholders concerned. The goal is to foster a culturally safe community approach based on the real needs of the vulnerable clientele. To do that, we must respond upstream and provide human support, which aims to direct clients to appropriate services other than the justice system.

In July 2019, the PPCMA was formalized as a permanent Sûreté du Québec station. Since then, the team has included a postmaster, 11 police officers and four social workers from a partnership with the Centre intégré de santé et des services sociaux de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue. From 2018 to 2020, we also benefited from the Pikogan community loaning us an indigenous police officer and a civilian employee. Unfortunately, that loan was suspended because their community lacked resources. Steps have been taken in other communities, but they are in the same situation: They are short-staffed.

The success of the PPCMA has inspired other regions. EMIPIC teams have been set up in five other municipalities: Roberval, Chibougamau, Joliette, Maniwaki and Sept-Îles. The teams are adapted to local realities, with support from indigenous liaison officers and other collaborators from indigenous friendship centres or partner organizations.

What we've put in place in Val-d'Or is more than a policing model. It's a humane, respectful approach deeply rooted in a desire to live together in harmony. I encourage you to watch the videos that show the PPCMA's success stories. They demonstrate the meaningful impact of our work on the ground and, above all, the strong partnership between police services and the communities. I will forward the links to those videos to the clerk.

Thank you for your attention, meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to questions.

MP Schmale, you have six minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today on a very important topic, which we are diving into because of the ongoing need to see changes to this system. As we learned in our last meeting, real fundamental changes to the way the department manages indigenous policing have not been made in many years. It's long overdue. I believe 2014—that was the date they gave us—was the last time it was even looked at. That's absolutely mind-boggling, given the fact that there are so many more challenges that we seem to be dealing with.

I also want to pass along our condolences on the terrible shooting of that 27-year-old man up in northern Ontario. Tragic events like this need to stop.

Grand Chief Benedict, maybe I can start with you. An October 11 CBC article outlines the chain of events that happened. In it, Grand Chief Fiddler talks about the brazen attitude these criminals are taking. They're coming onto reserves in some cases. Chief Fiddler talks about the dealers themselves renting planes to get into reserves that are only accessible by ice road. They are creating dependence with addictions, and it's a mental health crisis. At the same time, it's leading to human trafficking, which is unbelievable. Chief Fiddler goes on to say that these criminals become even more emboldened “because nothing happens to them. Nobody holds them accountable”.

Would you care to reflect on that?

[Regional Chief Abram Benedict]

I can't speak on behalf of Grand Chief Fiddler, but many of our communities are faced with very similar challenges. Sadly, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, the loss of our members due to organized crime is, unfortunately, quite common at this point.

There are a couple of things. The enforcement of first nation community laws is, in many cases, non-existent, whether it be from the RCMP or partnering with the OPP. If it's in regard to our first nation police department, it's the adjudication aspect. There's no recognition of that ability. A community may develop and enact a piece of legislation, a community law that prohibits certain persons or sets parameters for persons entering a community. If they are found to be guilty of a community offence, they would be removed. It's not prosecuted, which is a fundamental flaw in the system.

There is another aspect around accountability or being held accountable for those actions. When persons have been charged, whether it be by the first nation police service or the OPP, they end up going to court in many cases and are released on small bail, on their own recognizance or with conditions that frankly just allow them to go back to doing what they were doing. It's a real problem.

We know that the Government of Canada is considering bail reform. This is real for our people as well. People are offending. The system is broken. People are back out on the streets faster than the police can wrap up an investigation.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

For those watching or listening at home, it's important to also remind people how we got here. Bill C-5 and Bill C-75 are two pieces of Liberal legislation that were passed that drastically affected the speed at which criminals were let out on bail. With Bill C-5, if you were actually convicted, it reduced the sentences given by judges for those extreme penalties.

It's important to realize that the Liberals are finally thinking about correcting a problem that they basically ignored for many years. Even though they were warned at the time that we were going to get to this spot. This spot is what you're talking about now, the revolving door justice system where criminals don't feel that there are any consequences to their actions. This is causing problems for indigenous and non-indigenous communities.

I remember doing a study on indigenous policing. I can't remember how many years ago. It's prepandemic, I believe. The exact same concerns that you are talking about right now were discussed at that time. Not only that, as you pointed out in your opening remarks, Grand Chief Benedict, in 2019 the prime minister at the time, Mr. Trudeau, directed ministers to start taking a path toward making indigenous policing an essential service. We are now pushing 2026 here. In your opinion, are you shocked it's taking this long?

I don't have much time left. Could you also explain the remaining steps that need to take place in order for that piece, the essential service, and those bylaws that are passed on reserve to be enforced properly?

[Regional Chief Abram Benedict]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Unfortunately, that took us to six minutes. Perhaps you can answer that later on.

Next, we have MP Hanley for six minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Thank you to the three witnesses for being here and for your testimony.

I am going to start with you, Doris, given that you come from Yukon. I know that your journey here was anything but smooth. Thank you for that.

Although we can argue that the pace has been frustratingly slow at times, there has been some background work done. Public Safety Canada issued a report in 2022 on first nation and Inuit policing programs and, in it, one of the findings was:

Support for the exploration and development of alternative models for the delivery of policing services in communities with FNIPP policing agreements could complement or enhance existing approaches and provide flexibility in meeting their unique public and community safety needs.

It goes on to mention “an opportunity to explore and further develop alternative service delivery models that address non-criminal community safety concerns without police intervention.” Then they cite, in terms of examples, where they have provided support.

The first program cited is the Kwanlin Dün First Nation community safety officer program, and we know this has been leading the way for the country. I know that you have had calls not only from around the country—or you did when you were chief—but internationally as well.

I wonder if you can elaborate a bit on the concept of community safety versus indigenous policing and how that partnership with police works within the community as well.

[Doris Bill]

Sure. Thank you for that.

When we first started this program, we had constables from the first nation indigenous policing program and also, combined with that, the community tripartite agreement, and it wasn't working for our community. People would say that we were just not getting the justice we needed in the community. People were very dissatisfied with the service we were getting.

The relationship had fallen apart, and it wasn't just on behalf of the police. It was us as well. We were responsible as well. The relationship had eroded to a point where we had a satellite office in our community and they weren't even there anymore. We barely saw them. The officers would always get pulled away to the larger city, leaving us underpoliced.

When we developed the program, we went about starting to rebuild that relationship, because we understood that while the community safety officers have a job to do, they cover a certain area, a certain jurisdiction. They don't do enforcement. We understood that it is the RCMP's job, and it will always be the RCMP's job.

We had to rebuild that relationship, and I'm pleased to say that today that relationship is working quite well.

The safety officer program now is being replicated throughout the territory. There are other communities that want this program, and they're tailoring it to their own communities. It's amazing how well it's working in some of these communities. We get calls from New Zealand, Germany and New York City—I've been contacted by Black Lives Matter—and all over the place.

It's been absolutely amazing, but I think communities.... You know, for us, it was about taking responsibility for our own safety issues and taking responsibility for the things that were happening in our community. We knew that the RCMP couldn't be everywhere. They just can't do it all. We went to work and built a program where, if someone is released on parole, they have an obligation to contact our CSOs, first and foremost, and they contact our justice department. Then, for that individual, once they're released into our community, we are aware of them. We know where they are and we know what is going on with that individual, and they develop a plan for that person.

I really think that this program can work in other communities, but it needs to be supported. It really needs to be supported.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

There's so much more to ask you, but anything that you can follow up with, perhaps in written form, in terms of success stories and data would be gratefully appreciated.

Thank you.

[Doris Bill]

One of the things that we did, as well, was implement community prevention through environmental design. We did our own safety assessment and went to work and rebuilt the infrastructure. We took tons of garbage out of our community. We took out old, derelict vehicles and went to work and just tore down old shacks that people were sleeping in at 30 below.

Today, we have citizens who come back from outside and haven't been to Kwanlin Dün in years and say that it's a totally different place. It is a totally difference place. It even feels.... It's the feeling you get when you drive through the community. I watched one citizen's reaction, and she said, “Oh my God, it's so different. It's clean. It's beautiful.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

That's really good to hear, but we have to wrap it up.

[Doris Bill]

I feel that our people deserve that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Perfect.

Thank you, Doris. That's very nice to hear.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Captain Durant, thank you for being with us today. I think I'm not mistaken when I say that we ran into each other at the Gabriel Commanda march.

I was interested in having you appear to because, a few years ago, the situation in Val-d'Or situation got a lot of ink for the wrong reasons. Responses were undertaken, including the Viens commission, which was held in Val-d'Or itself to provide solutions to Quebec's situation in particular, but also to Val-d'Or's. You also provided a very concrete response thanks to the joint police service.

What's changed on the ground? We do need to contextualize the increase in homelessness, which is happening everywhere in Quebec and Canada, and which your system has no effect on. That might be making things even better. How have relationships changed on the ground?

[Capt Robert Durant]

Relationships have changed, because from the get-go, people trust us more. We take matters into our own hands through our approach and the social workers. It's not just a matter of responding to a call, resolving the situation quickly and leaving. We really have to get to the bottom of things and deal not with the situation, but with the individual. People often have substance abuse, addiction or mental health problems. These are social issues that were exacerbated by the pandemic. We had some social issues before the pandemic, but they've worsened since then. This approach allows people to receive care from the right person, rather than letting them go through a revolving door, and by that I mean letting them enter and leave the justice system and the health care system.

Val-d'Or is probably the only place in the world where a psychiatrist comes to a police station once a month to provide care to people on the street. It was set up and it's a success, because people with mental health problems don't often go to their appointments. That way, through the EMIPIC, members of the community and other community stakeholders, we make sure that people are taken care of and that the things and the care they receive are tailored to their situation.

As you said, it's changed our day-to-day operations. The best approach we've adopted is to take the time to resolve situations. People often say that the police arrive, resolve the situation and then leave. However, our approach lets us take the time. People help residents do their taxes when they have trouble doing them on their own. They take the time to help them. People go with residents to a store to buy boots, because some are unable to do that, especially when it's cold in the winter. Those are things we can do every day. When people's basic needs are being met, they tend not to cause disorder in public. They are taken care of and things go better for them.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for that.

In your presentation, you mentioned that it may be harder to recruit indigenous police officers, but also that you worked with the Pikogan community to recruit indigenous police officers.

I understand that you'd like to recruit more indigenous police officers. What's holding you back? Are enough money and resources being invested in this area? Should more positions be offered in schools?

[Capt Robert Durant]

That's a two or three-part question.

First of all, you'd have to ask the Sûreté du Québec, or SQ, about the lack of indigenous police resources, because I don't hire the SQ police officers.

With regard to loans from services like the ones we got from the Pikogan police service, we approached a number of neighbouring communities again so we could try to have police officers in uniform who would come out with us on the ground.

Officer Annick Wylde from Pikogan wore her uniform in public in downtown Val-d'Or, which allowed for a different approach and a more targeted connection with people. In addition, she was easier to approach for some people in the communities.

I haven't done any research on this, but perhaps we could change something in the process to try to attract people, because we would really love young people in our communities to become police officers in our forces. The Cégep de l'Abitibi‑Témiscamingue and other facilities in Quebec offer police technology courses. There are also indigenous police force cohorts. I don't know much about this, but I do know that it's pretty hard to recruit people from the communities and that everyone would like to see more indigenous officers. We'd definitely like to have many more. One solution might be to provide better coaching or offer internships to raise awareness of our profession.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have one last question to wrap up very quickly, because I don't have much time left. Do your police officers or young recruits receive any training on how to interact with members of first nations specifically?

[Capt Robert Durant]

Yes, we have two training courses at the SQ.

The first training is given online, and we learn how to better engage with indigenous peoples. We learn to listen, and we learn a few words and a few ways to do things. The second training lasts two days and takes place right in a community. Here in Abitibi—Témiscamingue, police officers spend two days in the Pikogan community. They meet with people who tell their story and explain how to respond to and interact with indigenous nations. That's basic training for all police officers in Quebec.

Here at the joint indigenous community police station, we've set up additional training in partnership with social workers on how to interact with people experiencing addiction or mental health issues and how to detect problems, so we can defuse situations and keep them from escalating. Therefore, we have several types of training.

The SQ now offers a new training course for all patrol officers: It teaches them how to respond to someone in an unsettled mental state, and encourages them to defuse the situation rather than acting too quickly.