Evidence of meeting #43 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meta.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Defence Lead, Security Policy, Meta Platforms Inc.
We've taken that number down. That was the 2024 number.
Defence Lead, Security Policy, Meta Platforms Inc.
We reduced it by 50% last year, and we're trying to reduce that number—the scam reports number, at least—by another 50% this year.
It's going to be a very long fight against these scam compounds. We're in it to continue to represent...and take them down.
Liberal
Doly Begum Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Mr. Camfield and Ms. Curran, while I appreciate the ongoing effort you may have made, those in my community and people across Canada can't put food on their table. They can't buy groceries. They spend $50, $100, $200 or $300—a significant portion of their income—and come home with bags of groceries that are not enough to get through the weekend. Meta made, let's say, $6 billion because people were scamming. Meta allowed that. That's what I see, so I don't know what kind of effort you made, but you're able to take down articles that would inform people on how to be more informed and not be taken advantage of.
I don't have enough time. I have so many other questions about your community standards guidelines.
The Guardian reported that Meta is the “marketplace for predators”. You recently lost a case where children were being sold, and Meta was a top platform for that. Do you have anything to say there?
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
Look, these scammers are industrial-level organizations operating in jurisdictions outside of Canada, and they're targeting digital platforms across the spectrum. They're targeting telecommunications companies. We all get scam calls and scam texts constantly, every day.
I think it is really going to take a whole-of-industry approach to address these industrial networks and take them down. It's going to involve working with law enforcement globally—law enforcement in other jurisdictions—to address these industrial networks. They are not just targeting our platforms. They are targeting digital platforms across the board. They're also targeting our telecommunications companies.
Liberal
Doly Begum Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
We had telecom companies, the banking sector and others here. They're making efforts. The difference I see here is that Meta is making billions of dollars by becoming a platform for scammers, for fraud, for other things like sextortion and for predators. To me, that's mind-boggling. We need to have much better mechanisms to tackle this. Right now, Meta is failing to do that.
Chair, I'll give the rest of my time to my colleague. Thank you very much.
Liberal
Dominique O'Rourke Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you.
This topic has done what is challenging to do. I feel this committee is really galvanized around the issue. We're tired of hearing from constituents who have been scammed. We read about it in the newspaper every single day. The platforms are the conduits for this—platforms where they just want to share pictures of their grandchildren or catch up on news from friends around the world.
In December 2024, the U.K.'s Payment Systems Regulator stated that in 2023, Meta platforms were linked to “54% of the volume and 18% of the total value of [all authorized push payment] scams.” These are frauds that manipulate people and businesses. We're not talking a lot about businesses. We're not talking a lot about romance scams either, which are almost doubly devastating because they prey on people's loneliness.
Mr. Camfield, you said that you can identify fraud patterns, even in end-to-end encrypted messages. You said that you have impersonation protection and that we need to fight these industrial-scale networks. However, Meta is an industrial-scale global giant, so I'm really at a loss.
By allowing that volume of fraud on your platform, how are you not being reckless or a party to this misleading advertising? Are you doing enough with your scam prevention hub? Do you care about the people in those fraud centres who you say are perpetuating these crimes and about the people in our ridings who are being scammed?
Defence Lead, Security Policy, Meta Platforms Inc.
The challenge with scams is that the victims truly are on all sides. All these stories of victims losing money to scams are horrific. The stories coming out of the scam compounds are also horrific.
We work in-region. We actually have an advertising campaign to intercept people looking for jobs, which is how they're often trafficked into these scams. We search-intercept, if people are looking for jobs, in the regions where they are most trafficked. We pop up and give this real-time information. Those pop-ups also direct people to the scam prevention hub for education.
Education is only one part of it. It really takes a lot of just-in-time messaging to get in front of people and prevent that engagement. It is a challenge.
Liberal
Dominique O'Rourke Liberal Guelph, ON
I would submit that the action that needs to be taken is to prevent those scams from being on your platform in the first place. Remove them and direct much more funding to scam prevention.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Thanks very much, Madam O'Rourke.
I'm going to take a few final minutes before we break into the next session, colleagues.
Ms. Curran, my questions will be for you.
The first is this: If a senior in my riding of Winnipeg South Centre were to lose their life savings in a scam that originated on Facebook, would you see yourself as being accountable for that loss?
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
I'll turn that over, MP Carr, to my colleague—
Liberal
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
—Jon Camfield, who's the expert on frauds and scams internally.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
No, you are here in front of a parliamentary committee, at our calling. I'm asking this: In the scenario where a senior in my riding loses their life savings to a fraud that occurred on your platform, do you, as the head of public policy for Facebook in Canada, see yourself as accountable for that loss?
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
I think we are accountable to reduce frauds and scams on our platform as much as we possibly can, working in collaboration with industry, with government and with law enforcement. I think that's our responsibility.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Okay, so if that took place on your platform, you would say that it's partly your responsibility but partly the responsibility of the police.
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
I think the fraud attack chain, as my colleague Jon Camfield has described, occurs across a variety of players. It may start on Facebook. It may start with a telecommunications company or on SMS. It may continue to a bank transfer. I think Meta has a part to play in this fraud attack chain. Our part is to reduce the incidence of frauds and scams on our platform to the maximum extent possible.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Ms. Curran, how much money does Facebook spend in Canada or globally per year on its investments around fraud prevention and scam prevention?
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
I don't know the answer to that question, but we can follow up with the committee.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
You do not know how much money Meta is investing annually to solve a problem that is costing Canadians billions of dollars.
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
I don't, but I can say that over the last decade, we have spent $30 billion on safety and security on our platforms, and that includes frauds and scams.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Do you worry that investment in fraud prevention will hurt your bottom line as a company?
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
Not at all. Listen, Meta does not want to be making money from frauds and scams. I think my colleague, Jon Camfield, can speak to that. We want our platform—
Director, Public Policy, Meta Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.
—to be a safe, pleasant place for our users, and that does not include having them scammed or defrauded on Facebook or Instagram.