Evidence of meeting #31 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was manufacturing.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Hattin  President, Edson Packaging Machinery Ltd.
Art Church  President and Chief Executive Officer, Mancor Industries
Jan Courtin  Principal, Port Credit Secondary School
Jean-François Michaud  Head of Business & Technology Department, Port Credit Secondary School
Paul Hyatt  President, Superior Tire and Auto
Bill McLean  President, Tempress Ltd.
Jonathan Barry  Senior Member, Economic Development Committee, Vice-President, Entreprise and Bell Canada, Toronto Board of Trade
John Sloan  Vice-President, Operations Planning, Celestica
David Black  Policy Advisor, Toronto Board of Trade
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. James M. Latimer

6:35 p.m.

Principal, Port Credit Secondary School

Jan Courtin

We're not alone in facing this reality. As you said, everyone must contend with it.

I'm a little more comfortable with English, so I will use English to respond to you.

The ministry in Ontario is very aware that we need to establish a broader range of pathways for students, and I think it's all about education of everybody. I think the government is actively involved in that.

It's not just us, it's not just our little area; it's everywhere in Canada that we need to have a wider range of opportunities for students. You're completely right about that.

6:35 p.m.

Jean-François Michaud Head of Business & Technology Department, Port Credit Secondary School

I just want to add something to your question there.

In Peel there are there are about a million people. I forget how many students there are in Peel, but there are 32 high schools in the Peel board. Out of 32 high schools, five teach manufacturing. Out of those five, I can guarantee you for sure that two consider manufacturing to be wood products--not metal, not plastics, not anything like that. I don't think there's one high school in Peel, other than our school, that teaches anything about plastics.

You have to look at the population. Five classes on manufacturing is what, a couple of hundred students? What are we doing? People are complaining about skills. If you look at any board in Ontario, I think you're going to find the same problem.

As well, the equipment in those shops is obsolete. I'm 46 years old, and in many of the shops the equipment is the same thing that was there when I was in high school. So we need to upgrade the technology and we need to upgrade the skills. We need to spend money to make money.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Crête.

We'll go to Mr. Carrie.

November 22nd, 2006 / 6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

I want to direct my line of questioning to Ms. Courtin. I'm really excited about what you're saying here today, because many of our witnesses from the manufacturing sector have been saying that we need to concentrate on human resources. Immigration is a part of it, but we really have to get our act together domestically and start getting kids interested. We had a witness from General Motors and from the University of Ontario Institute of Technology in Oshawa this morning, and one of the things they said is that manufacturing just isn't sexy and people aren't going into it. They think there could be dirty factories. We were in a fantastic factory this afternoon. It's the cleanest factory I've ever seen.

What are you seeing? You had 800 people coming to your open house last year. Obviously parents are interested. What are they saying about your program? What are they saying once they talk to you?

6:35 p.m.

Principal, Port Credit Secondary School

Jan Courtin

It's fair to say that there is a lot more choice now for people looking for a high school, and going to high school is a really big step in a child's life. The parents do shop around, and we have a number of regional programs in the board, so that's part of the reason so many people come out. It's also fair to say that the parents who want the best for their kids and have been pushing their kids since they were born really want their kids to go to university and be engineers and scientists and doctors and what have you. I wanted to attract, as I said earlier, two classes worth of kids who are the hands-on learners who may go to college, may do apprenticeships, and so on.

What I'm finding is that I'm getting more interest on the part of those academically driven students, and that's why I'm of the belief that if we can get the right partner and we can get the right profile and the right attention, we can build this. It's like saying build this and they will come, because there is a need. When I look at those hands-on learners who are bored--and I'm sorry, because I love Shakespeare--with Shakespeare, they want that hands-on learning.

So if you get my drift, it's one piece at a time, and I know you want to jump in. Thanks.

6:40 p.m.

Head of Business & Technology Department, Port Credit Secondary School

Jean-François Michaud

One of the earlier gentlemen said that we have to increase immigration and make it easier for people to come to Canada. I couldn't agree more with that gentleman, but there's a problem that happens with the second generation. The people who immigrate to Canada are skilled tradespeople. They have all kinds of skills and brains. They don't want their kids to be skilled people or tradespeople. They want their kids to be lawyers and doctors and so on. So what happens is the second generation from these people end up not having any skills, so we have to start looking at growing skills within Canada so that these people can carry the traditions on.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

That leads to my next question. I was wondering who you have approached, because I've had the opportunity to talk to companies in other jurisdictions and other countries. What they do actually is have schools linked right with their organizations, and as you said with respect to the equipment issue, for example, they'll have the up-to-date equipment working in the factory. They bring the students right over and they can see and interact with that.

Have you talked to the Canadian manufacturers and exporters? We have a couple of manufacturers here. What kind of response are you getting? Are the manufacturers actually going and talking to you about this, saying that you're doing exactly what they need and asking how they can get on board? What kind of response have you had?

6:40 p.m.

Principal, Port Credit Secondary School

Jan Courtin

They're always very supportive and very enthusiastic, but they don't put their money where their mouth is, quite simply. They're great to talk to; sometimes we get equipment. We've raised $125,000, but that is mostly in kind. And I'm very grateful for that, don't get me wrong, but I need to buy equipment.

The manufacturers are supportive. Yes, they're interested, but sometimes I think they're viewing this as just one school. Maybe they're looking for leverage from the board. Well, I can't get that from my board of education. They have various reasons. I'm sure the right one will step up.

6:40 p.m.

Head of Business & Technology Department, Port Credit Secondary School

Jean-François Michaud

I think one of the problems was addressed with Mr. Hattin here. He was talking about tax incentives and so on. When we approach industry, what industry is telling us is that they're paying taxes already and why should they give to our school on top of what they already pay in taxes.

The other thing we were running into is that we're at the high school level. If Mr. Hattin over here decides that he's going to invest in our school, what's the likelihood of payback for his company? Those kids are going to end up going to college or university. There's a very slim chance that one of our students will in fact end up in his business. If he's looking at it from the angle that he's investing in Canada, then yes, he will invest, but if he's looking at it as wanting return on his investment now, he's going to go to a college or a university where he's going to get instant access to an employee, and not so much look at long-term people like us, where students have to spend four or five years in college or university.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Hattin, you wanted to comment.

6:40 p.m.

President, Edson Packaging Machinery Ltd.

Robert Hattin

Yes, we capitalists are hard that way. But I would also say there's another side to it, and we would hire people. From our side, the process or the mechanism isn't easy to do. It's very difficult to put a high school student into, let's say, a machine shop or things like that, with the liability to go along with it. We're now becoming more overregulated in who we have come in and all this other stuff. We have several college students, and we do hire high school students, but do you know what? Just the extra responsibility to do it and the red tape becomes an impediment. I think all of us try to do our best.

But speaking to the skilled trades issue and transition, there is a bit of an image issue, and business has to take that on. But as you saw, there are many businesses out there. I've often said to my CME peers that what we really need is the equivalent of CSI, because if you look at all the people who say, “Hey I want to do that,” you're trying to vie for their hearts and minds. The thing is, it is true that the image is a little bit tainted, but really, most people in manufacturing are running something kind of interesting, not doing drudgery.

But I'd like to speak to my friend from Quebec. Yesterday we had a peer of mine from a customer company come up--my friend Eric, who is a customer. He had to move, and again, to reinforce the point, unless businesses or governments help to attract people.... This gentleman, who was educated in a CEGEP, and his wife, who is trained as a nurse, ended up following their company down to the States. So we train these people, basically we subsidize expense, and then they follow the multinationals. That's an unfortunate burden when in fact we should be attracting people because it's sexy, interesting, and well-paying.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll go to Mr. Masse, for six minutes.

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming.

I'll start with Mr. Church. I thought it was interesting that in your presentation you mentioned that you're opening up a plant in Indiana. Why Indiana and not Canada? What were the decisions you made to open up operations there as opposed to somewhere in southern Ontario?

6:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mancor Industries

Art Church

It's not Canada's fault. My customer is in Indiana. I have customers in Indiana. They want me to be close to them, and I'm opening up a plant there.

The reason I brought it up is that I'm trying to help. What about the company that has a customer in Canada? Is the Canadian environment also trying to help? We were going to Indiana anyway, and I'll tell you, they still did everything they could to get us there. Partly it's because they're hungry, and partly they've had a lot of bad news in the U.S. and a lot of plants closing. But it's competition.

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

It's an important part, though. You mentioned that they're giving $1 million in grants. But you're still going down there because your customer base is down there, so that's in the decision-making. What type of grant systems are they applying down there that you could access?

6:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mancor Industries

Art Church

There's good and bad. It's not all a great story. They give you special loans, but the problem is that the paperwork exceeds the cost of the loans. So we actually declined the loans, because it's just not worth it.

However, they do provide a lot of money for training. I'm abuzz on training, and I just believe that in the end the well-trained are the ones who are going to win. So there's a lot of money there.

I'd like to make one other point, that Canada is a good place to be. We have good people. We have a good company here. We have good customers. This isn't like we're bad; it's just that we have tougher competition other places.

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I understand that, but it's important.

We just came from a tour of a plant that is very successful. They're asking for accelerated writeoffs as well, but at the end of the presentation, they're still moving operations elsewhere because they want to be closer to their customer base, which seems to trump everything.

With regard to that in terms of accelerated writeoffs, it does seem to be one of the things that can be done. I've seen it in my area, Windsor West, where we have a tool-and-die mould industry. When a company goes under, they can be bought out by another international company that actually has an operating business that's viable, but they shut it down just to get the equipment and they ship it overseas. If we move towards accelerated writeoffs, what types of guarantees could we get from industry that the writeoff would stay in the country for, I guess, the duration of time?

6:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mancor Industries

Art Church

I'm the wrong guy to put that question to.

6:45 p.m.

President, Edson Packaging Machinery Ltd.

Robert Hattin

It's really simple. Again, it's all about wanting to grow it here, but there's a penalty if you're going to be one of the sunset industries that go away. If you giveth, therefore you can taketh away.

Maybe speaking on the educational side here, the other thing we're seeing is that we'll have to retrain older employees, and that maybe high schools or colleges will need to take on the new market of the older person who's going there from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. as well, because that's the other thing. We're missing a lot of these skills. A lot of our aerospace skills have gone. A lot of our heavy manufacturing skills have gone. It's like the Avro Arrow; they all went south and put people on the moon.

6:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Ms. Courtin, I used to work with youth at risk and employment training for years, so I have a lot of empathy for what you're going through when you have individuals who want to participate in the program. You probably spend a lot of your time going around trying to get the support, as opposed to where the energy should be, in developing the programming. With that, one of the things I've heard from a lot of youth who are going through some of the training programs we have in our community is that they do find a job at the end of it, but the job's not long enough to pay down their student debt. There's insecurity about that.

If it's not going to come from the province, do you have any specific suggestions in terms of the federal government to allow you to access some type of support system? Do you have any specifics in terms of what the federal government...? You're kind of in a provincial jurisdiction here, but have you thought about whether it would be some type of specific assistance or whether it would be a program--I guess they've cut the student program back a bit--where it could be targeted if there was a new one? What specific things federally do you think we could do?

6:50 p.m.

Principal, Port Credit Secondary School

Jan Courtin

Are you referring to post-secondary debt, when the students get into debt when they go to their post-graduate—?

6:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes. As they funnel through their careers, they're looking at this now.

6:50 p.m.

Principal, Port Credit Secondary School

Jan Courtin

I really do focus on the high school experience, and I know that my students often will take an extra year off simply to earn the money to go to college or university. They don't have enough, very often, but certainly anything you can do to provide more open access for loans to students would be appreciated.

6:50 p.m.

Head of Business & Technology Department, Port Credit Secondary School

Jean-François Michaud

I completed three apprenticeships in my career before I became a teacher, and I think the biggest struggle for me was the fact that I couldn't get any incentives. As an auto mechanic, I couldn't write off my tools. I couldn't do any of those things. Snap-On was nice enough to grant me a loan at 18%. But we need to be able to write off some of the tools. We need to be able to write off some of our expenses, like businesses do, so we can afford to go to school.

The other thing is that when I went through my apprenticeships, I was on unemployment insurance, and that was a big cut-back in my pay cheque. So we need to look at also standardizing the wages to some degree so that companies know what to expect when they hire an apprentice.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

We have three members left for questions. We have about 10 minutes, so I would ask members to be short. That would be helpful.

Mr. McTeague first.