Industry Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[Gregg Alton]

I think there will be abuses. A lot of the activist and NGO communities have made it very clear that they do not want to see patents enforced outside of the western world. They will do everything they can to see those patents pushed aside. I think this could be a situation--I don't know the particulars--where there would be the opportunity for the R and D industry to go in and work out an appropriate arrangement with this government. This is taking that ability away.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

What if the Canadian government knew what government was there and had a quiet word with Mr. McCool, Mr. Williams, Mr. Kay, and Mr. Alton and said, look, we have extremely good connections with this particular country, we believe this to be a bona fide legitimate request, and we believe this particular company may be able to provide what is needed there? I think there is also the question of some nations not wanting to bear the stigma of declaring themselves in that situation. I don't know the cultural sensitivities, but I do know of the imperative of trying to get those drugs there.

Mr. Alton, I appreciate your comment, but frankly it's one of the many reasons that are being used right now. We can assign or deride the NGOs as we wish, but the 300,000 children who died last year in Africa speaks volumes to me as to our inability.

I'm wondering, if the Canadian government through a review of this legislation were to make a direct undertaking to the government that was looking for this and the request was legitimate, and with a certificate by the Canadian government, would you then accept that? Do you think that would be an acceptable means of getting around that so we can help companies like this provide drugs to help save lives?

[Gregg Alton]

I would ask if we would have the opportunity to engage in discussions with that country to find out what the challenges are for that country to access our medicines to put their patients on the drugs, and have the opportunity to try to work out arrangements with that country directly.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Why aren't you doing it now?

[Gregg Alton]

We are doing it now.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

But there are people dying in those countries.

[Gregg Alton]

I'm saying that prices and patents are not what is causing these patients to die.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Yes, Mr. Williams, and I apologize, I called you Mr. Russell earlier. I didn't have my glasses on.

[Russell Williams]

I'm used to it, don't worry. I'm going to change my name to William Russell.

To your question, and it's an important question, it seems to me some basic information is important. I understand the sensitivities you're trying to get out. We are very touched by this humanitarian crisis. We have to deal with this, and we're working on it. I'm not going to spend more time on this, but we are actively doing it, and we're going to continue to do it. We all should do more, and we should be comprehensive.

But we're always trying to get that equilibrium between intellectual property protection and access, and it seems to me that if we're going to change that balance, then some basic principles to make sure there aren't diversionary activities are to know what country is asking for it, to know what quantity, and to know who is going to use it. Those are pretty basic kinds of things. If there's a way to get at it that builds in some flexibility, we should look at it, but those basic principles, of getting those four questions answered, I think are pretty fundamental.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Sorry, I think Mr. Keon wanted to jump in.

[Jim Keon]

I was just going to say, in line with what Mr. McTeague said, again, the brand-name companies own these medicines, they have the patents, now they can go to any country they want and offer the product at any price. Why did the developing countries want the system under the WTO? Why do they support the Canadian legislation? Why would they like to see improvements? It's because they're not getting the product as often as they want at the price they want. They want more competition, they want someone else to bid on their tenders. That brings prices down; that's what they need, and that's what this legislation is intended to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. McCool, briefly then, if you want to respond.

[Terry McCool]

To clarify one of Mr. McTeague's points. If you're a least-developed country that's not a member of the WTO, you can come directly to Canada, you don't have to post at the WTO. It's only for WTO members, and that's consistent with every country that's introduced this legislation.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

If you come directly to Canada, you come directly to--

[Terry McCool]

If you're not a member of the WTO.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

All right. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

We'll go to Monsieur Arthur.

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm always amazed at the ability of a government and a Parliament to complicate things. When you multiply that by the number of countries that are members of the WTO, I guess we now realize that the possibilities are infinite.

We've taken the goodwill of the world and put it smack in the middle of the minefield of a war between the generics and the brand names, and then we should be proud of that--something's wrong.

Then there's also this complicated relationship between pills and money. Here are countries that are the poorest countries in the world and they're supposed to want medicines, but in fact they want money. If we send them money to buy our medicines, they will say it's paternalistic, that they don't want it. They want our money to build their plants to produce their medicine with our patents or our absence of patents. So at no time will we see a real order with real money for real drugs at a good price. They are not interested.

Moreover, most of those countries on the schedule are on another schedule, the schedule of the most corrupt states in the world. Here we are, with our goodwill and our minefield, trying to be asked to produce some drugs for them, then we'll give them a good price. I'm not sure they're interested in buying drugs. They will take everything we give them, but they would still prefer money because it's so much easier to put money in a Swiss account than in pills.

Mr. Kay, you told us about your nasty experience with a country that did not want to be identified. This country, was it a real order they were ready to pay for when you invented the triple combination of peppermint you have on your desk? Was that a bona fide order or was it just talk?

[Jack Kay]

My belief is, in talking with the people from MSF, it was a bona fide order.

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That they would have paid for.

[Jack Kay]

That MSF would have paid for.

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

But not the country; they wanted a gift.

[Jack Kay]

Not the country, that is correct.

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

How can that be fixed? We have one government complication, multiplied by all the governments of the WTO, to have an international regulation that's inapplicable, and then we're here, all Canadians of good faith, trying to find a solution. Isn't the solution much more simple: that the Government of Canada will buy drugs in Canada and ship them to whoever over there wants to get the drugs?

Today you gave us a magnificent demonstration that there are no solutions. You will never agree on anything, and you don't want to agree because it's contrary to the real interests of you people. You do not need that thing, that complicated thing. You are much more at ease sending your brand-name medication over there, free of charge. You are much more occupied producing drugs for the Canadian market and you don't care about Africa when the bottom line appears. So there's no solution.

Is there a solution?

[Jack Kay]

First of all, if I didn't care, I would not have spent $2 million in developing these products to be shipped to those countries where people are dying. We did it because as a Canadian company it was the right thing to do.

I do agree with you that, as one of the other members stated, maybe the right way to handle this is for CIDA to be buying products, whether it be from a Canadian generic company, whether it be from my friends from the brand industry, or whether it's even from companies manufacturing generics in India, in order that Canadians do the right thing in helping to save lives.