Industry Committee on July 27th, 2010

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So you didn't meet with any of them. But you did tell the Canadian people that you had the backing of census Canada, that they said that this would be a valid approach--the ideological decision that you made, without consultation, without due diligence--that, hey, you had the backing of census Canada.

Mr. Sheikh had to resign in order to maintain the integrity of the bureau, to say, wait a minute, we didn't support this decision and we don't believe these data will be valid.

So with the resignation of this key bureaucrat, would you at least admit that this decision was made solely for ideological purposes to satisfy a mysterious group that you say is bubbling up out there; that you didn't have the backing of census Canada; that you refused to meet with the key bankers and the social planners; and that this is something your government is implementing strictly on a ideological whim?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I think I've gone through the looking glass, Mr. Chair, where the NDP is demanding that I meet with bankers.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

But having said that, I'd be happy to answer your question.

Obviously Mr. Sheikh's resignation was accepted with regret. In fact, I was working with him for months in order to implement the government's decision to protect Canadians from the coercive and intrusive methods that had been used for the 40-page long form. And we were working together to come up with, I think, options that work to make sure that the data obtained are usable data, are reliable data, for the purposes for which a voluntary survey is intended.

Certainly that's the balance that we have tried to strike, and we think we've struck it. If others have other ideas that could help animate this discussion, we're willing to listen to them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Rota.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here today.

Over the course of your decision-making, obviously you asked for advice. You say you consulted with Statistics Canada. The former head of Statistics Canada pointed out that you have the authority to release the written advice that was provided to you.

Will you provide this committee with that advice?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Well, I may have the authority, but the fact of the matter is that if it's advice to cabinet, as you know, Mr. Rota, there would be some issues of the oath that I have taken. So that's the challenge--

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

It's about the information that was provided to you. Will you provide us with it?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I think I can tell you again, sir—

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Yes or no--simple.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm trying to answer your question. Sometimes questions may sound simple but the answers deserve to have some detail attached to them.

The fact of the matter is that I've said before this committee already, and I've said before the public previous to this committee, that it was we who made this decision. We take full accountability and responsibility for making this decision. Then we worked with StatsCan over the last several months to come up with options to implement—

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I'll take that as a no.

I'll just move on to my next question, then, if you don't mind. I have some concerns, to follow up on what Mr. Angus was talking about, with regard to the crises that have been created. Recently you introduced Bill C-14, which all in all wasn't bad legislation--“Fairness at the Pumps”--but it was the title that came with it; it was the “anti-chisellers” act, to give the impression that everybody's out to get us when in reality a very small number of people actually are cheating at the pumps. There may be problems with some of the measurements, but it's a small percentage. But it made it sound like we were under attack, like there was a crisis there.

And now, all of a sudden, it sounds like the government will come to your door and throw you in jail. There's this crisis: if you don't fill out this form, you'll go to jail. Flashback to 1995, when I was a city councillor in North Bay; not long after that you were made a minister in a previous government. I've seen this show before. It's a replay. You create a crisis and get everyone upset, and all of a sudden you have a crowd of mad people out on the streets chasing something down that really doesn't exist.

This is about being jailed. It's about the penalty.

How many people have been jailed since 1971?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Of course, I disagree with your characterization. Our motive is—

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

No, no. The question is how many have been jailed since 1971? It's a simple question.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Our motive is—

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

No, no. The question is how many have been jailed?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Let the minister finish his preamble sentence, and if he doesn't provide you with an answer, then he doesn't have it.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The difference between you and me—

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Mr. Minister, I didn't ask what the difference was between you and me; I asked how many people have been jailed since 1971.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

—is that you're willing to continue a situation where, if a Canadian—

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Let him finish his sentence.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

—objects to filling out a 40-page census form, you are willing to threaten them with jail. You are willing to threaten them with fines and/or jail, and we are not willing to do so. That's the fundamental difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Rota, go ahead.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Have you considered taking the penalty away or changing the penalty? That would seem to be the logical way of looking at it. That seems to be an option.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Sure, certainly we have considered that. The issue, though, is that if you have a situation where something is mandatory but there's no sanction, it's pretty much an empty threat. We would prefer to work with Canadians to voluntarily fill out the long form in order to get the robust information and reliable data that some people require for their businesses or their institutions. We think that's a better way to go.