Industry Committee on Nov. 20th, 2013

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Again this leads to resources. Here we're asking all of these things of CBSA—to do the things they need to do at the border and now in transit as well. This is coming down to some of these things, unfortunately—the idea that if it's not staying in our country, let's let it go—but ultimately it may come back in the form of circuit breakers. Am I getting that whole “squaring the circle” type of thing there?

[Scott Smith]

I would say so.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Fair enough.

Mr. Smith, during your opening presentation I think I heard you say something about attracting the “effectiveness of enforcement”. Can you explain what you meant by that?

[Scott Smith]

There has been a lot of talk about the idea of a simplified procedure. If that doesn't happen, we're saying make sure you're tracking the number of seizures. Make sure you're tracking the resources that get allocated, and look at some performance measures from the various agencies that are involved. Look at the performance measures from some of the companies involved—how many are actually registering with the request for assistance program?—and be able to use that information down the road to say whether this is an effective regime or it is not an effective regime. If it is, great. If it's not, you'll know how to fix it.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Do I have a little bit of time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much. You're right at five minutes.

We now go to Mr. Lake for five minutes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses. This has been a very interesting panel today because different points of view on different aspects of the bill today are represented. I think it has been a very well-rounded panel.

Perhaps I'll start with the resources issue that the NDP is bringing up. It's interesting, because no matter what we talk about in any committee on the Hill, the NDP want to spend more money on that thing. Certainly, as governments, we need to assess our priorities and make decisions accordingly.

If you were to package together all of the different expenditure proposals the NDP have, they would have a significant impact. For example—and maybe I'll come to Scott on this—in their last platform they called for, I think, an 18.5% corporate tax rate versus the 15% we have right now. That might be one way to pay for all of the things they talk about.

Where would the chamber stand on increasing the corporate tax rate from 15% to 18.5%?

[Scott Smith]

If you're looking at adding more resources to the CBSA or the RCMP, one of the ways of doing that might be through administrative penalities or statutory damages. The government could recoup some of the costs they might invest in things such as training.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So the increase in the corporate tax rate wouldn't be something the chamber of commerce would favour?

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Try to lead a little more.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Just a yes or no.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I can write his answer out for him if you want, Mike, and bring it to him.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Just throw it from the desk. Just play with him a little bit.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I think about resources and I think about the fact...because clearly we have experts at the Border Services Agency who know what their priorities are, and given the tools they have, they allocate those resources accordingly. I think about the resources in my day. I have 24 hours in my day, every day, and I have various tools I might add to what I do every day—BlackBerry, information management techniques, time management techniques, networks of people who I talk to—that will make me more effective. I can add those different tools and I can choose to use or not use those tools to get more out of my 24 hours. I don't have to add three hours to my day to actually use those tools to be more effective. I think that's what we're seeing here. We're adding tools to the resources that CBSA officials have. I think they've said they will be able to use those tools to be more effective in attacking counterfeit.

[Scott Smith]

I would agree with that as well. That was sort of the central message I was trying to get across in my original presentation—that there are a number of things this bill does that add tools to the cadre the enforcement agencies are able to use, and we'd like to see those come to fruition. I think that's important. It's about efficiency.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Maybe we could go along the table and hear what the most important of those tools are. We've heard some ideas for tweaks we might make or things like that we could use to make the bill better, which the government might consider. Of the things in the bill, what are the most important aspects, the most important tools for you?

Perhaps, Mr. Lipkus, you could answer.

[Lorne Lipkus]

An officer having ex officio power to take the counterfeit off the market, to deal with it even if it's just to send it to the brand—that is the number one tool that people have been asking for forever.

I'd like to add to the answer regarding resource. Resource allocation is always a difficult thing. This bill doesn't create a new department within customs to deal with something; it's just giving them one more thing to look for in shipments that are coming in. A lot of this is intelligence-driven, and until we get out there and start seizing counterfeit, I don't think we really have the best appreciation for what we're going to find. I know that every time we look for it, we find more than we expected. If we have a regime where we have some tweaks to it and we allow other people to pay for it, I think we can make this work very well.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Does anyone else want to weigh in?

[Jim Keon]

On prescription medicines, with the increased enforcement powers given to the Canada Border Service Agency, one of the things that we would recommend is increased cooperation with Health Canada and their inspectors, who I think are the real experts. There needs to be well-established protocols between the CBSA and Health Canada to allow for quick and effective determination of—

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

To add to the efficiency of—

[Jim Keon]

It would make it far more efficient. Often it's not immediately obvious whether these are counterfeit medicines or not. An inspector or group could really bring that expertise to bear. I think that's a recommendation we would make.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Keon, Mr. Lake.

We have a few minutes left. I have a couple of members who have some burning questions. But the fairest and most effective way for me to bleed out this time is to go to the witnesses first. If there are any questions where I had to cut you off because of time, if there's something that you want to respond to right now, I'll just go across and ask. If you don't have anything, then I'll go to the members who have burning questions and we'll see how much time we have.

Mr. Smith, Mr. Lipkus, is there anything you want to add?

No, okay.

Mr. Keon, is there something you wanted to add that you didn't get a chance to say?

[Jim Keon]

I congratulate Mr. Brian Jean. He congratulated us on our work with Health Partners International. I think he does a great job in promoting them and in getting medicines abroad.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I myself was at one of his big events.

Ms. Ventin.

[Carla Ventin]

I want to address Ms. Sgro's questions about the health and safety of products, especially non-compliant products. What I was saying is that there are health and safety concerns. The product formulations may not be approved in Canada, and the packaging and labelling may be deficient. There may not be full disclosure; they may not be accurate. So there is a health and safety concern in dealing with counterfeit products.