Industry Committee on May 7th, 2018

Evidence of meeting #106 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was content.

On the agenda

Statutory Review of the Copyright Act

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Donna Bourne-Tyson University Librarian, Dalhousie University, Chair of the Board of Directors, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

H.E.A. Eddy) Campbell (President and Vice-Chancellor, University of New Brunswick

Terrilee Bulger Co-owner, Nimbus Publishing

Teresa Workman Communications Manager, Association of Nova Scotia University Teachers

Lesley Balcom Dean, Librairies, University of New Brunswick

Andrea Stewart Board of Directors Liaison to the Copyright Committee and Director of Libraries and Educational Technology, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

Scott Long Executive Director, Music Nova Scotia

David Westwood President, Dalhousie Faculty Association

James Lorimer Treasurer, Canadian Publishers Hosted Software Solutions

Andrea Bear Nicholas Professor Emeritus, St. Thomas University, As an Individual

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

This is also a very interesting segue into my next line of questioning.

Several people, I believe including you and some other witnesses here, have called for TPM circumvention technology to be brought into Canada, and for TPMs to be able to.... I understand, fairly, that you're asking for it to be used only in cases where it should be legal. But if you admit that you can't currently regulate or even monitor copyright infringement and compliance with print or digital, aren't you taking away the final line of protection for creators to protect any of their work?

2:55 p.m.

University Librarian, Dalhousie University, Chair of the Board of Directors, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

Donna Bourne-Tyson

Is that a rhetorical question?

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

If they don't have TPMs and you're not able to monitor this, then really they have no protection, wouldn't you say?

2:55 p.m.

University Librarian, Dalhousie University, Chair of the Board of Directors, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

Donna Bourne-Tyson

Yes, that's a valid point, but we do not see any evidence of that sort of illegal reproduction. The only time young people are interested in even reproducing material like that is often when they want to create their own content, which is allowed if they're doing it in small amounts.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

For sure.

Let's say you have 100% of a work. In your case, I believe they allow people to take 10% of a work. Wouldn't you agree that in a well-researched work—even in an academic environment—10% of a work could pose a very significant part, the bulk of the research work that somebody is doing? If you can copy up to 10% of the work, that could be a disproportionate value of the entire document, wouldn't you say?

2:55 p.m.

University Librarian, Dalhousie University, Chair of the Board of Directors, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

Donna Bourne-Tyson

It's 10% or a chapter, whichever is less. Certainly for other works, like a poem or a short story, we wouldn't.... It's not the same consideration. You treat it as a whole and—

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

It changes, obviously.

2:55 p.m.

University Librarian, Dalhousie University, Chair of the Board of Directors, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

Donna Bourne-Tyson

—you pay for the use of that.

2:55 p.m.

Board of Directors Liaison to the Copyright Committee and Director of Libraries and Educational Technology, Council of Atlantic University Libraries

Andrea Stewart

I wanted to give examples from my own educational institution from the compliance perspective.

I can give examples of a reduction in educational printing through our print services department. Instructor print copy requests have gone down substantially over the years. There was a 25% reduction in 2015–16, 27% in 2016–17, and 35% in 2017–18. They're printing less and less.

The content that does go through our print services department is reviewed by our copyright office to ensure it's in compliance and meets the fair dealing requirements, if they're using fair dealing as a mechanism in order to print.

I would also say that, with our learning management systems, we have mechanisms built in, as well. Faculty are expected to sign off on a responsibility statement when they go into the LMS. We have auditing mechanisms also in place internally in order to encourage and ensure that the faculty are following the policies.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Mr. Baylis. You have five minutes.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to start off by getting my head around some numbers. I'll start with you, Ms. Workman. You said that the universities are paying out $300 million. Is that correct?

3 p.m.

Communications Manager, Association of Nova Scotia University Teachers

Teresa Workman

That's my understanding from the statistics gathered by the Canadian Association of University Teachers.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Could that information be submitted to the clerk, please?

3 p.m.

Communications Manager, Association of Nova Scotia University Teachers

Teresa Workman

They have it in my speaking notes.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I do not mean your points. Is there some document that states $300 million?

May 7th, 2018 / 3 p.m.

Communications Manager, Association of Nova Scotia University Teachers

Teresa Workman

I'm not sure, but I'll check into that for you and submit it.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Yes, I'd like to see an actual document.

I'll turn to you, Ms. Bulger. You said there is a loss of $30 million, and I believe you said there's a study by PwC. Is that correct?

3 p.m.

Co-owner, Nimbus Publishing

Terrilee Bulger

That's correct.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Could you also submit that?

3 p.m.

Co-owner, Nimbus Publishing

Terrilee Bulger

I certainly can.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I have another number—we have a lot of threes here. You said that your business has lost $30,000 and gone down to $3,000.

3 p.m.

Co-owner, Nimbus Publishing

Terrilee Bulger

I don't have the exact numbers back to what it was in 2012, but for a company of our size, my estimate was about eight to ten times what we had.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Yes, so you said you were making $3,000, and you expected to make 10 times more or $30,000.

3 p.m.

Co-owner, Nimbus Publishing

Terrilee Bulger

That could be, yes.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

So you've lost $30,000.