Industry Committee on May 7th, 2018

[Dr. H.E.A. (Eddy) Campbell]

Yes, we did opt out at the time we created the copyright office back in 2009. We felt we could manage a system that would be fair to the creative community, respect the legislation, the definition of fair dealing that is embodied in the current act, so we created that system back at that time.

I believe we do quite a good job at having a look at what people are doing. There's an education component where we try to ensure we are in compliance with the legislation as we understand it. We have no intention of doing anything else.

Lesley, do you have anything to add?

[Lesley Balcom]

One of the aspects we're very pleased about that we're undertaking at the University of New Brunswick is our course reserve system that is integrated with our copyright office. For example, UNB online, our online course offerings, are all required to go through the course reserve system to ensure the course materials are vetted through our copyright service.

Our copyright officer spends a great deal of his time on education with in-person sessions, developing materials to be used online, and he spends much of his time just being available for questions. We made the decision to embark on the development of a culture of copyright awareness, and much of what we do is in support of having a teaching community that understands and respects the limitations of copyright.

When I'm with Josh Dickison a number of people know him and say hello, and by the by ask him questions about their course materials. I feel strongly that we've been successful in that regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you.

We're going to move on. Mr. Masse, you have seven minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you for being here today.

What we are finding—not dissimilar to the past—is that there are many stories of people infringing on copyright material yet few specifics are provided for it. There's enough of a complaint that's consistent that would indicate that something's going on related to this, but at the same time, we're really not provided with a lot of evidence for that. I've been through copyright a few times and this seems to be a recurring trend.

Maybe I'll start with the universities. What happens to a teacher, either tenured or non-tenured, who has been found violating copyright? What is the punishment for that? Do you have any examples of that taking place internally, if you have a robust system of copyright protection? Do you have any examples, and what happened in those circumstances?

[Lesley Balcom]

Our examples are based on instructors forwarding their proposed readings to us. We're able to say to them, “Before that goes forward, we're going to need to find a transactional licence for that”, or “If you're interested in linking to that title, we'll buy it in e-book form.”

Our experience is that we are able, through our intervention, to ensure that those situations don't happen. I'm certainly not going to sit here and say they never could, or they absolutely never do, but I don't believe that educational fair dealing is what is the....

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

If you catch somebody, though, a professor or instructor, and they're violating the Copyright Act, what is the punishment at your university? What are the consequences for such an activity? Do you have a measurement or do you leave it to the court system? Ms. Bulger provided an example with regard to material being posted online, and I'll go to that in a minute, but what would be the result of that? What's your policy to protect the individual?

[Lesley Balcom]

From our perspective, the policy would be to ensure that the material is replaced with an appropriate version of it. I can't say what would happen because I haven't encountered a full item being copied and made available to students at UNB.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You don't have a specific policy. You haven't had a circumstance, but you don't have a policy if you have somebody who is an instructor, either tenured or not, who violates the copyright policies of Canada. There's no specific recourse in terms of dismissal, reparation, or reprimand. It's just on a case-by-case basis.

[Lesley Balcom]

From the library's point of view, our job is not to do that. Our job is to ensure that it doesn't happen and we do a good job of it, but I will defer to my president.

[Dr. H.E.A. (Eddy) Campbell]

Yes, I would say we would view that as an opportunity for education rather than punishment. The problem is we haven't been exposed to such accusations. I imagine if the violation were serious enough, we would want to make reparation, effect a transactional licence after the fact, compensate the person whose work had been taken, outside of our existing licences for our use of that material.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Would it be a case-by-case situation? I'm trying to get a feel here in terms of... because there's an accusation. I'll leave it at that for now, but it sounds to me like you don't have a specific recourse. It would be a case-by-case situation.

It's a simple thing. If you're working for a university and you photocopy a book and put it up on the Internet to share with your students, and you're caught doing that, what would be the result? Would it be case by case or would there be a specific action, like dismissal? That's what I'm looking for, what would happen to that person.

[Dr. H.E.A. (Eddy) Campbell]

Let me make it clear. I don't view that as a dismissible offence. I view that as an opportunity to educate a particular faculty member as to their responsibilities to obey the legislation, and I would also point out that it's extremely important to us that we are in compliance. That's why we've made all these efforts to ensure that we are.

You, I think, have pointed to a hole in our policy, a policy gap that we should address—when we do find people in violation, what will we do?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'm not being critical either way. It might even be that's the best way to deal with it. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly happens when these situations arise.

Ms. Bulger, with that case that you gave as an example, what happened? Did your company or the association take that up? What university was that?

[Terrilee Bulger]

It wasn't actually a university. It was the Nova Scotia Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, and so I brought it to their attention and it was removed.

Now I don't know what happened. I never went and asked what happened to the teacher who did that, but it is theft, so you would think there would be some sort of repercussion.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'm a big fan of the carrot-and-stick approach if you want to encourage things to happen. But if you're not going to play by the rules, then there are consequences for that.

Maybe you can provide the committee with details, but I hear a lot of these hypothetical or potential situations. If you would like to share the details of the case you mentioned, it would be interesting, because we don't get a lot of these coming forward to us. We just know somebody claims that they copyrighted, or they took something and photocopied it, or this or that. I haven't received a lot of evidence over the years of it taking place

[Terrilee Bulger]

I don't know what else you need. I could send you the emails that went back and forth perhaps.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Or just if there was a case example that led to something that was public and is not private. That would be helpful for us.

Maybe I'll let you guys have a chance to—

[Terrilee Bulger]

But can I also just check...there is quite a bit of evidence of that in the Access Copyright v. York University case—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, I know that the one case is going on, but it's just the one case. It's the most recent.

[Terrilee Bulger]

There is another case in Quebec as well at Laval.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes.

[Donna Bourne-Tyson]

So those two cases have not proven that there was a—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I know.

[Donna Bourne-Tyson]

Yes. At Dalhousie, we have always said that it's a shared responsibility between faculty and administration, and while the university would be the named respondent if there was a court case, we have made it clear that that is a shared responsibility with faculty. Disciplinary proceedings are long and well-governed in a university, so it wouldn't by any means be grounds for dismissal but it would be an action with consequences.

We found that faculty are very interested in being in compliance and they ask instead of just going and putting something up. We did an audit of our learning management system before we left the Access Copyright licence with our university auditor leading it, and it was a clean audit. So people do want to comply.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much. You're over time. We'll get back to you.

Ms. Ng, you have seven minutes.