Industry Committee on May 9th, 2018

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It's like YouTube.

[Ann Ludbrook]

Yes. They work for free as editors for those journals. They work for free as authors for those journals. They work for free in that profit.... But they do. What they get is reputation and they get impact and they may get tenure because they have published in a certain journal. That is the scholarly publishing cycle. It's a very strange and elastic market.

[Joy Muller]

I was recently at a conference in Washington, D.C., on computers and libraries, and one of the things they noted at that conference was that there are three tiers now for authors. There is the gold tier where the author will actually pay the publisher to include their work in the publisher's publication in order to get that recognition.

I'm suspecting that is happening more and more with the larger publishing companies, because a researcher wants to get their research out there and they're willing to pay to get their materials published, but it is not directly impacting a library that would pay the publisher to get access to the database where that piece of material is published.

[David Caron]

Just from a Canadian publishing perspective, we publish a scholarly journal, and there was no way that we would not pay an author who contributed to each issue of the journal. Every author who contributed was paid. That's actually the material that is no longer carried by that digital platform.

[Ann Ludbrook]

If management has an academic author agreement—and I'm actually asked to consult in this area—that actually pays an author, other than a book publishing contract.

[David Caron]

The publishers that you have cited are foreign publishers. For us who deal with the Canada Council and the Toronto Arts Council, there are very clear positions for us about how we must compensate our creators.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I honestly think from the delegations we've had, everybody wants to see a sense of justice in this. It seems the process in itself and the way that we have the system is certainly frustrating everyone.

Can I just maybe get your take on the Copyright Board, and if you have an opinion on it and any suggestions for that?

I'll start with you, Mr. Caron. If you don't, you don't have to, but I'm trying to get this as I go across.

[David Caron]

I'm not as familiar as my colleagues are about the Copyright Board.

[Sylvia McNicoll]

I find that it doesn't matter what the copyright says; the schools ignore it anyway.

[Joy Muller]

From the Ontario college libraries' perspective, we recognize that they don't seem to have the resources to make any decisions.

We've heard many things over the years about how long it's taking and about how we are losing creators in Canada because the Copyright Board is not making certain decisions in a timely way. We would encourage the government to give it those opportunities and resources to make decisions that benefit creators and users.

[Ann Ludbrook]

We do feel that the Copyright Board is taking a really long time, especially on the educational tariff, especially in the university sector. As was said earlier, we've been waiting since 2011 for a tariff to be completed.

Retroactive payments are considerably worrisome for universities. I don't think that there should be retroactivity.

[Ken Thompson]

The Copyright Board is a very essential body in this area of law. In fact, most of the Supreme Court of Canada decisions start at the Copyright Board.

I'm not downplaying the book publishing industry, but it cuts across all of the industries that rely on tariffs that the board sets.

We know that the Senate held hearings a couple of years ago on the operation of the Copyright Board. There have been internal studies that have been going on for years. I understand now that the heritage committee is having a second look at remuneration. It clearly needs to be reformed. Something needs to be done, whether it's to add more resources or to set standards that require the board to meet its obligations in a timely manner.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Marian Hebb]

Can I add a little bit to that?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Very briefly.

[Marian Hebb]

The tariff is dealing with royalties right across the board, affecting a whole collection of bodies of work.

This just gives me the opportunity to correct something that was said before. Besides the tariffs, you have these transactional licences. I would just like to put on record that Access Copyright does do a lot of transactional licensing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you.

We're going to move to Mr. Sheehan.

You have seven minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you to all the presenters. I said to the previous panel that it's always great to go to the different regions.

I even noticed in Sylvia McNicoll's analogy where she used driving.... If the speed limit is 100, if the people on the 401 and the highways around here start driving at 110 and then 120, the next thing you know, they're blending in and now they're at 140 and 150. Driving here from northern Ontario, I experience that and notice that. I was like, “Wow, are they ever....” It seems that everyone starts driving at those speeds.

We're talking about the Copyright Board and tariffs. But in my mind as well—and it goes to some of what Ken was saying, and this is where the question is for Ken and the board—I'm wondering if we are doing a good enough job of educating people. This regardless of what the rules are because the rules seem to be, perhaps, not enforced by everyone all the time.

If you didn't receive any issue or problem, then you went on.

Ken, you talked about an interpretation of the rules and whatnot. You're dealing with a number of artists and a number of issues. Are we doing a good enough job of educating whoever it is? In the previous panel, they mentioned that by the photocopier there is a sheet of paper saying what the rules are. Is anybody reading that?

Are our educators, even at the high school level, educating our students? Are our educators at the high school level being educated on what the rules are, regardless?

Sylvia, I think I'll go to you first. Do you think we could do a better job, regardless of the rules, in educating some of the people on the importance of copyright and protecting the creator's rights?

[Sylvia McNicoll]

Unfortunately, because of the Internet and the feeling that content is free, students are extremely resistant to the idea that intellectual property isn't a free-for-all, so start with that.

Can we educate the teachers better, or the students better? You're going to have to jump over the hurdle that for some reason content is free. They don't care. If they spend $1,000 on a phone, they think the phone should come with free music and books, just because they spent $1,000 for that phone.

I am still with that 10%. That is my issue and that is my problem, that somehow schools have assumed that 10% is okay. So if it's okay that they do that, and then the students do it, look at that prison example. If she photocopies a book, what are the prisoners going to do when they get out?

We are leading by example as well. We're saying that it's okay to photocopy a little. I know I'm coming from a different perspective; I'm coming from the K to 12, and with the younger kids you photocopy more than you download.

Have I answered your question?

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I think so, and that's some of the stuff I made note of.

[Sylvia McNicoll]

We almost need a campaign for kids to understand that content is curated and created.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

In keeping with your analogy, I think that's part of what we've done with driving, whether it's drinking and driving, distracted driving, speeding, or stunt driving. The education has always been imperative, and the fact is that it's my daughter who is the enforcer of the family to make sure everyone is adhering to the rules. I just wanted to point that out.

I'm hearing that more and more that—

[Ann Ludbrook]

Could I add something to that?

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes, go ahead, Ann.

[Ann Ludbrook]

Right now I'm working on an OER Textbooks project for eCampusOntario, which is a digital citizenship tool kit. We have a chapter for first-year university students on copyright and being a good digital citizen.

I do think the universities are aware of that, and that digital literacy is being taught at universities. At our institution we are thinking about that, libraries are thinking about that, and we have modules that are available. The colleges have a module, and some of the authors on the project we're working on right now are college authors who work on modules for the college sector.

I think universities are grappling with this issue, and we are educating our faculty as well. In fact, I would say that since we've opted out of the Access Copyright agreement, we have been working, across the higher educational sector in Canada, far more on trying to raise awareness and talking about what copyright is, what they have to do and what their responsibilities are, than they have ever heard before in a collective licence regime.