Joy, would you like to comment?
Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
5 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
This is very close to my heart because I was the project lead for copyright literacy in Ontario for a community colleges project.
Of these modules—there are almost 20 of them—seven of them are specific to fair dealing in copyright, as the Copyright Act lays out fair dealing. We have very specific modules that are based on questions that faculty have come to us and asked—for example, whether they can post a particular YouTube video for their class on course management systems. We go through all the fair-dealing steps, the six steps that faculty have to consider in individual cases.
These modules, as I mentioned, have won an award. We presented at a library conference about a year after they were created, and many universities have approached us about gaining access to these modules. We've put them under a Creative Commons licence, and they are now available by a link on eCampusOntario, through the Ontario College Libraries learning portal.
If you go to eCampusOntario, you can see a nice little blog that's just come out about the learning portal. It was created by the heads of libraries and learning resources under the auspices of their chair, Tanis Fink, who also happens to be my director. At the portal, you will see that we have a faculty tool kit and that these modules are now available for anyone to access on the web. So we are striving very hard to educate.
5 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
Could I just comment?
Nobody ever consults the writer, though. I don't feel that they consult the content provider.
5 p.m.
President, Ontario Book Publishers Organization
That would be my question also.
What was the involvement of the copyright holders in the development of those modules?
Do they have a voice in that message being sent out to that faculty?
5 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
We based those modules on the Copyright Act itself, consulting with CICan, which was ACCC at the time of creation, that deals with creators and authors as well as the educators and legal counsel. We tried to touch on as many areas as we could in creating these.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to Mr. Jeneroux. You have five minutes.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
I'll quickly follow up on that.
Writers weren't consulted essentially because the other organizations and your lawyers satisfied that need.
5 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
I feel that's correct, although I would say that my recollection isn't exact in terms of when we took the faculty questions and created these modules. Many of the faculty we consulted with may have been creators themselves.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Ms. Muller, just so I know, are Colleges Ontario...? It's a little different where I come from; we have our polytechnics and that. You guys just lump them all into one, right?
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
Well, I hear rumours that it might not be the case in the near future, but right now we are all colleges.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
That depends on the outcome of the provincial election, perhaps. We'll see. We won't get into politics here.
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
Thank you.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Have colleges opted out of Access Copyright? From my understanding, about half of universities have, and half of universities haven't.
Is that a similar ratio in Colleges Ontario?
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
I did a survey when I received permission to speak of the 24 Ontario community colleges. Most have opted out. Of the 24, there are four or five that still have licences with Access Copyright.
I will point out that collection budgets, the size of the library, and the size of the student and faculty populations really vary across the community colleges in Ontario. Directly answering your question, not all 24 have opted out, but the majority have.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
When Access Copyright applied for their increased tariff, it went from $3.50 per student—every year we would pay $3.50—to $35 per student at the colleges. At that point in time, because we were all moving towards a more digital environment and demand by students for 24-7 access, similarly to what Ms. Ludbrook told you, we started looking at our transactions. We started noticing that many of the things we would pay Access Copyright for, if we continued in our licence with them, we were already paying with our vendors online for our digital.
Really, we were trying to figure out why we were double paying for access to this content, particularly when we pay and give our students 24-7 access, and our faculty could create persistent links so they didn't have to make any copies; they could send the student directly to the link. Really, all of us started looking much more closely at what we were paying for. Seneca was one of the first back in 2012. Our contract was coming due and we opted out.
5:05 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
Can I just comment?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Sorry, I know you both want to comment.
I just want to get to what that means. Explain to me the difference between.... You keep mentioning the digital 24-7 content versus the paper content.
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
We are currently dealing with over 80 vendors of digital content for our students. If a faculty decides they want a student to purchase a textbook, that's arranged through the bookstore and the student is required to purchase the textbook. We have nothing to do with that. In the case of faculty wanting supplementary material, or to create a digital course pack using the resources the library has paid for by sending the students to different articles, journals, newspapers, and even e-books, they have that option now. They can browse our library catalogue, and they will find resources they need.
In the case of many of the college libraries, we have directional resources. We call them subject guides. If the student is learning about biology or chemistry, we might have a subject guide that sends them to the databases that contain the articles that would be relevant for their course. This is available for both faculty and students.
In addition to that, there are more and more committees springing up across the college library communities around open educational resources and open access, as encouraged by eCampusOntario.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much. We will get back to you.
We're going to move to Mr. Jowhari. You have five minutes.
May 9th, 2018 / 5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for participating on this important topic.
A couple of words came out that I want to echo back. I want to get your input on a topic that, in my mind, needs a little more clarification. I need some guidance, at least.
A number of times there was discussion around gaps existing. This is the gap between the content creators getting fairly compensated and quality content being available for the users.
Reasonable limits and the nature of work were discussed. Is there an issue with the interpretation of the act? Are there concerns around definition and clarity of the act? Are there issues around open interpretation that allows that much flexibility for someone to drive 100 kilometres and then somebody else drives around 150 kilometres? Is there an over-application of the act in other areas that doesn't need to be there? Is there a scope issue? Do we have an oversight issue? Is there an issue with the process? Do we have a punitive damage process?
Help me try to figure this out.
Mr. Thompson, you touched on a number of recommendations, and as fast as I was trying to write.... I think you would be a great start to this.
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Artists and Lawyers for the Advancement of Creativity
What you referred to is the value gap: the value between the use, the user, and the creator. From the creator's perspective, there is less value, on the user's side, given to the work that they create. Their interest and compensation is diminished because of the value gap.
There are a number of reasons why we have a value gap, as has been expressed. One of them is that intermediaries—this comes back to YouTube and user-generated content—are not liable. That means third parties are often not liable. I come to my issue about performers and their ability to collect compensation when their recorded musical performances are used in the soundtrack of a film. They are not entitled to that money, even though other creators are.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Artists and Lawyers for the Advancement of Creativity
The good thing is we have a five-year review. That's one of the best things. Instead of putting the Copyright Act on the shelf, I think it's more important now than ever that copyright be given a very good going over, because it impacts much more than it did previously. It was kind of an arcane area of law, but now it cuts across everything, including software development. One of the best ways to protect software is through the use of copyright law.
Laws have to be clear. Obviously, the discussion here this afternoon indicates...is the law about an educational exemption? It's not clear to everybody at the table.