Industry Committee on May 10th, 2018

[Alexis Kinloch]

With that 66% decline in payments to visual artists by Access Copyright between 2013 and 2017—a 66% decline in five years for visual artists—doesn't it just go to their not getting paid at all? I do think that we're in danger of that. I don't think it's out of the question that that is something that could happen, considering that payment to visual artists, and grants and opportunities for visual artists, have decreased significantly in the past decade.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I understand that, but do you see them moving to other jurisdictions, as opposed to Canada, if their work isn't respected? Do you see them quitting altogether and not producing art? Those questions seem obvious, but I want to hear your perspective.

[Alexis Kinloch]

God!

[Dominic Lloyd]

It's almost a loaded question, and I say that with respect because nobody knows perhaps what will happen.

The fact is that artists are being paid less for the same amount of use of their work. If you look at it as a curve, eventually the curve is going to go down.

As to whether they're going to leave the country, some probably will; some might not. As Alexis has stated, there's a perfect storm of things happening now. To use the example she brought up, the CRA looks at one artist—an artist, by the way, with extensive international practice and recognition all over the world—as a hobbyist. He's being looked at by the Canada Council for the Arts as a professional.

We need to get the definitions right. I think that's what it is. There is a danger. What the danger is, I don't know. I shudder to think.

[Alexis Kinloch]

What's the point of knowing the end result of the worst thing that could happen to artists? Do we have to speak about it in those terms? Can't we just support the fact that artists should have more space and be given more respect, rather than saying, “If we don't, then maybe they'll move away”? Artists have relocated and done all those things in the past. We've seen through terrible times in history that people in general always come up through hope. I just don't think we should talk about the potential of that. Let's move in the other direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you. These are definitely tough questions.

Mr. Sheehan, you have five minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

Cecil Youngfox, a great painter, a great artist from my area of Blind River, has Ojibwe and Métis parents. He is fantastic, and I really appreciate his art. He has been inspired by various cultures. He paints. It's just wonderful.

My question is going to be for Dominic and Alexis.

Within different industries in the artistic community, there are residuals or royalties where, when a piece of art is resold, there's money back to the artist. I've talked to a lot of artists about this. Once the artist sells the painting and the painting is resold, the original artist does not receive any compensation, so do you think there should be some type of compensation for visual artists?

[Alexis Kinloch]

Yes. What has been proposed, with extensive administrative possibility and work done behind it, is 5% for the artist.

In the example of Kenojuak Ashevak, after the $58,000 resale, the artist would have received $3,000 on top of the $24 she got for the original.

That 5% is what the artist should receive, and that should be revisited continually for concerns of inflation.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That's good. I appreciate that. I just wanted to get that on the record.

Earlier the committee heard from Professor Bear Nicholas, who appeared before the committee in Halifax. She recommended that the Copyright Act be amended to recognize indigenous storytellers as performers. Would you endorse that particular recommendation?

[Dr. Lynn Lavallee]

When I think about performance, right now when we have events and we have someone with a drum, a performance isn't ceremony. There will be differences of opinion on this, but that's my opinion. When I hear “performance”, the hair rises on the back of my neck. For the stories, the terminology “performance”, I wouldn't say minimizes it, but for me it just doesn't fit. I don't know how other people feel about it.

[Camille Callison]

Coming from the west coast, we do actually talk about it as a performance, but it depends on the performance. For example, there are sacred performances that happen in the longhouse that you're invited to, and there are no cameras. Then there are other feast performances that happen on the north coast, but they may be referred to as “longhouse performances” in the south. Those are definitely public performances. If you're capturing that on video or camera, whatever, it's hard to get permission when it's a public performance. But if you're reproducing it, you definitely have to get the performer's permission just like you would for any other type of performance. It really depends on the context. I think that's where it has to differ.

When we look at things like indigenous knowledge in ballets that we've had here, with the reconciliation ballet and things like that, we see that as performance. I think it really depends on the context.

[Sharon Parenteau]

I also think that when you think of performance, you think of entertainment. A storyteller could be an entertainer at the same time. That's a different kind of storytelling than somebody who is telling you the story for the purpose of giving you a teaching. That's a different kind of teaching.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Can I get a clarification, because under the Copyright Act a storyteller would eventually become part of a public domain? I think you would agree with that statement.

[Sharon Parenteau]

Yes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That's interesting.

How much more time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

None.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I had some of the same kinds of questions, if you'd had more on the legal stuff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

You have nothing left.

Mr. Masse, take us home.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to finish with the Copyright Board again. Maybe we could just go across the panel for your comments on the board, whether you have suggestions and/or favour the status quo, whatever it might be. If you don't have anything to say, that's fine too, but I want to make sure that an opportunity is provided for you to comment.

[Sharon Parenteau]

I think in the day of reconciliation, “inclusion” is a good word, and “representation” and “distinctions-based”. Those are key words that I would include in thinking about a board.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Sorry to interrupt you, but would more timely decisions, for example, also be important for your community? It's decisions are lingering. I'm not being critical of the Copyright Board per se. It's just that the decisions are taking long periods of time. Is that important? Maybe it's not. If you don't have comments, think about it. You can always submit them to us. You're not here on the spot. We're here for your input.

[Sharon Parenteau]

I don't know if it has really affected our community. For us, when we think of copyright, I'll go back again to the MMCREP, our own research ethics protocol that we've developed. We've found a way to work with universities and colleges as a partner. When we have a student who comes in and says, “I want to do research. Oh, I've filled out the ENREB form already.” I say, “That's great that you've done the university's piece, but now you're working with us, so you have to talk with us.”

That's not really answering your question about timeliness, but—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You're giving a model that actually works.

[Sharon Parenteau]

That's part of what I call “inclusive”.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I won't interrupt the last panellist.