Evidence of meeting #112 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Are you finished, though? Great.
I figured the other guys were way over, so I'd let you go way over too.
Mr. Jowhari.
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
First of, thank you all very much for coming. I also acknowledge the land that we are on. Thank you for hosting us today.
I'm going to start with Ms. Parenteau.
Sharon, you said that traditional knowledge is passed on through storytelling. You also said it's more on the knowledge keepers to use oral history to be able to keep that knowledge alive and pass it on.
Before the copyright legislation, these stories were being told, were being repeated for thousands of years. Also, Camille talked about getting permission from the elders or from the original storyteller to be able to pass it on. What is the protocol in indigenous nations for us to be able to mimic, or at least to amend or consider as we look at copyright as it relates to indigenous or traditional knowledge?
5 p.m.
General Manager, Manitoba Metis Federation Inc.
I think you have a couple of different concepts going on at the same time.
First, when we use the word “indigenous”, we're talking about a lot of different people. What Camille is doing in her community, what Lynn is doing in hers, and what I'm doing in mine are very different. They're first nation and Métis.
I am Métis. Georgina and I even come from the same community. What she might have learned in her community is different from what I learned in my community.
Knowledge is passed down from generation to generation in families and in communities. You can be an outsider within the Métis community. If I go to Georgina's community, I'm an outsider in her community, so I have to be mindful of how I'm gathering that information.
5:05 p.m.
General Manager, Manitoba Metis Federation Inc.
Correct.
If my father, for example, is taking me out into the bush and teaching me which mushrooms are the ones I can pick, that's information that was passed on to him from his parents. It's not the same type of sacred knowledge. You do have to have permission to use it, but you also have to be very knowledgeable yourself before you can pass that information down. The knowledge is very complex. There are multiple layers.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
How does that knowledge get out today?
It's not being respected by coming in and asking the knowledge creator or knowledge owner to be fairly compensated or be acknowledged. How is that knowledge getting out?
5:05 p.m.
General Manager, Manitoba Metis Federation Inc.
I can tell you, Joseph Boyden is one really good example of that.
He, for one, said he was indigenous. He said he was Métis first, which he's not. He's claiming that he's Métis, but according to our definition, he is not Métis. Then he went to indigenous knowledge keepers and asked and listened to their stories. I don't know the process that went on. Maybe he told them he was going to write a book about it. Then he took that information and he wrote it down in a book and made a lot of money off it. He won awards.
That is a really good example of how traditional knowledge needs to be safeguarded for those very reasons. He might have done it in a very honourable way, but you can see from the backlash of the indigenous community in Canada that it is not acceptable.
5:05 p.m.
Vice-Provost Indigenous Engagement, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I think that our challenge is thinking about indigenous knowledge. We're emphasizing that this knowledge is different across all lands, because indigenous knowledge really comes from the land.
The other thing is the variation of indigenous knowledge. The storytelling is one aspect of indigenous knowledge. The medicines are another aspect of indigenous knowledge.
As Camille said, there are some stories that we just keep within our family. These are not meant to be shared more broadly. There are teachings within these stories. The reason we tell these stories is to provide teachings to that next generation.
There are some stories like the stories Joseph Boyden heard. He heard the story about the bear walker—and I'll say that because it's still daytime. That is a very specific story that has been reiterated in many different ways. It's something that someone shared with him, and there was no expectation that he was going to write a book about it.
There are these stories, and different prophetic stories, the seven generation teachings. They're almost pan-nation teachings. They are deeply embedded, old, traditional knowledge. Everybody will say it in a different way. Sky Woman is talked about in different cultures. These are stories that cross many different nations and take many different forms.
Then there is very specific indigenous knowledge with respect to healing ceremonies. I think that's one thing that's happening right now.
We're talking about different things.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Do the first nations, the Métis, want that knowledge shared?
5:10 p.m.
Vice-Provost Indigenous Engagement, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Some of it.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay.
Here is where I have a dilemma. You also talked about an indigenous legal system. You didn't get a chance to expand on it. I'm hoping that in the next round of five minutes I'll ask you that question.
Is there something that could be in place? Is there some formal guideline that we could use? It looks like the spectrum is very wide.
5:10 p.m.
Indigenous Services Librarian, Ph.D. candidate, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
First of all, I need to say that I'm not a lawyer. I'm not giving you legal advice. You can talk to my sister, who is a lawyer, for that. I can't solve all of the legal dilemmas in about five minutes, but I can give you a good try.
I think in every culture there's private and public information. I'm sure you have stories in your family that you don't necessarily tell in public, and when they do come out in public, it can be a little embarrassing. It's the same in indigenous communities. It's really wonderful that people are so interested in them and there's this curiosity about them, but there is private information in our families. I think we have to acknowledge that this is here, and it's always going to be present, no matter who it is.
I come from an anthropology background. We know that anthropologists were guilty of this. They went out and collected stories They were so concerned to write down the stories in the era of salvage anthropology, when they felt that indigenous people were dying in Canada and that they would die out, that they didn't worry about finding out whether they were private or family stories, or things that could be told in public, or when they could be told. There was an absence there of the protocols.
I always say to everybody that it's about relationships. Reconciliation is really about relationships, and what we're doing with communities. You have to go back to the communities and form a relationship with them, and then find out from those communities how to access that knowledge, how it's preserved, who owns that knowledge, how it's stored, and how you can share it, or if you have the right to share it.
That's part of the legal system in governance systems. Indigenous communities need the government's help to be able to establish those protocols. When you come and ask that question of an Anishinaabe person, they can say, “Well, we've gone back to our elders and our community, and this is how we deal with this knowledge.” There needs to be that work.
That's part of the reason I and many other people felt that a generic respect, affirming, and recognizing would be the way to go, and then allow the communities the time to be able to work with their communities on that knowledge.
I hope I answered your question. I don't think I can give you a whole lot.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you. Did I give you enough time? I'm back in the good graces?
Mr. Lloyd, you have five minutes.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
This question is for Ms. Kinloch and Mr. Lloyd. You provided some information that the average salary of a writer or artist is about $33,000 in Canada, which isn't a very impressive number. It's a tough life for an artist in this country. Writers have it even worse. We've been told in multiple testimonies that it's about $13,000 a year for a writer. I just want to get your perspective, and possibly with some concrete examples, or even anecdotes, of people whom you know or have interacted with, Canadian artists or authors. What is the impact of fair use on your cultural—and I hate the use the word “industry” because it really is a passion, but I'm going to use it—industry? Where do you see the future of your industry if these problems aren't addressed properly?
5:10 p.m.
Program and Arts Development Manager, Winnipeg Arts Council
The $33,000 number, yes, it was the average, and I think, yes, if you're a dancer it's well below that.
In terms of fair dealing in literature specifically, I'm not an expert on that. I know my colleague here provided some examples of sales and royalty numbers in the visual arts, which is primarily where our research has led.
Did you want to speak to that at all, Alexis? You're the one who has the research on that.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
To clarify, I am asking about the visual arts. I'm just using the comparison that writers are facing the same issue, and we've heard from them what the effects are, that they believe that Canadian culture is really at risk if this continues to go this way. I'm wondering what is the perspective of the visual artists?
5:15 p.m.
Public Art Project Manager, Winnipeg Arts Council
About visual artists on fair use, I don't have personal examples.
I'm sorry, I'm bad at thinking on the spot like this, but an example that you could potentially look at, which goes to your use of the terms “passion” versus “industry”, is that of an artist on the the east coast recently. You may be aware of this story, where the CRA is charging this artist over $30,000, I believe it is, in taxes because they have deemed his practice to be a hobby, and deemed him to be a hobby artist.
The Canada Council for the Arts and other arts funders have a definition of a professional artist. It is an industry of sorts. While these people are passionate about their work, I still think it's important to recognize the professionalism that goes into it, which is why we keep saying that you should defer to the artist, because they have had to become professionals in order to protect themselves. Also, they go to school, or even if they don't they spend their lives doing it and they deserve that recognition. The danger really is that they could also be disrespected in this way of being called a “hobby artist”, or saying it's a passion rather than a job or their life's work, which then allows a blurring of lines to give maybe less agency to the artist.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
What is the risk to artists if the issue of fair use and the issues with their community don't get solved?
5:15 p.m.
Public Art Project Manager, Winnipeg Arts Council
If the issue of fair use doesn't get solved...?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative