Evidence of meeting #12 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nrc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
I didn't know the decision hadn't been made yet. You could let us know, then. Thank you.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
As an educator, I am interested in the educational materials and their associated copyright, as well as the music that goes into the schools. These are other things that are critical. I know how important this is and how concerned educators are to make sure they are following the rules the way they should be.
I agree with Mr. Longfield that if we could get the results of the hearing sent to us, and the ramifications of that, I'm sure it would be beneficial to us.
One of the first things I'd like to ask, because we were just talking about the U.S. and Canada, is how does our copyright regime compare to that of the U.S.? Are there things that we need to be doing? Are there things that set us above? Perhaps we could start with that.
3:50 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
Does your question relate to the collective management of copyright, or does it relate to bigger issues and copyright issues in general?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
I think we could start with the first part that you had mentioned, the role that you have, and how you see, in general, the relationship between the copyright issues.
3:50 p.m.
Secretary General, Copyright Board of Canada
I can discuss the role the board plays in that context and within the industry. As you know, the publishers and the industry in general have various sources of revenues, which come from the selling of their material.
What we do is set is considered to be a relatively small part of the overall income. That is the part relating to the reproductions that some institutions, like government and schools, are making of these. What we usually do is to set a rate that is in proportion to some number of copies. That comes back as royalties that get distributed back to the various publishers and the various rights' owners.
The mandate and objective of the board is to set rates that are fair and equitable, but the objective and the mandate of the board, as per the Copyright Act, is not to ensure a certain level of revenues for all of the rights' owners. That might be where you can sometimes feel some opposition between the two.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
When the Copyright Modernization Act was passed in 2012, it added new rights and new exceptions, as you mentioned in your address. It then expanded your mandate and your workload.
Are you able to manage that? Is it a serious issue? Is it something you feel you have under control?
3:50 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
I wouldn't say that it's out of control, but it's difficult. It's a challenge with the resources we have. As I mentioned in my presentation, there have been three phases, plus major decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada, plus some decisions of the Federal Court of Appeal, with respect to some procedural rulings of the board. All of those together make it more and more difficult for us to deal quickly with all the tariffs to be certified. We're not pleased with the time it takes us to render a decision. Nonetheless, the reality—and all those involved with the board's procedures will recognize this—is that the complexities and volume we have to deal with are enormous.
Gilles, do you want to add my comments?
3:50 p.m.
Secretary General, Copyright Board of Canada
I can only reinforce it. As the secretary general, I do see the push on the resources. There are stakeholders who expect their tariffs to be certified much earlier, and we just can't because we don't have the bodies to actually do the work. At the board nothing can be done really automatically; it needs to be well organized and well thought out.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
With the resources, what did you get in this recent budget allocation with regard to...?
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
It was $3.2 million.
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
It was the same.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
For instance, for 2013-14, it was $3.2 million; for 2014-15, it was $3.275 million; and for 2015-16, it was $3.250 million. So it's actually slightly decreased.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Actually, yes, you've had a budget decrease while inflation has increased, which really goes against what Mr. Dion had put in his recommendations on June 11, 2014. Advocating for more resources was part of a series of issues that he had raised at that time. So this is quite a clawback from where we're at.
In terms of employees, are you having any issues with retention of employees? How is that at Copyright Board right now?
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
We do have a certain problem, yes. First, it's hard to attract economists, especially, I would say. It's very hard for us to compete with the private sector in terms of salaries, advantages, and so forth. As soon as they get some knowledge of how the board functions, they have an expertise that is very appealing for the private sector, those who deal with regulatory matters or price fixing, and so on and so forth. So, yes, it is difficult.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
That's one of the concerns I have about the situation. It's an obvious repercussion when you can't maintain your staff for practical reasons, not because they don't like where they're working or they have anything against their work. But when you see no potential opportunity for raises or workload developments and other things, it's natural to want to exit the system. I guess the only net benefit staff get is extra work and overtime and expertise, being thrown into the deep water right away.
When you have these turnovers, how does it affect the cases you have to deal with and make decisions on? Does it take longer, then, to retrain them and put them on a file that's pre-existing?
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
As soon as someone leaves the board, is absent on family leave—and it happens all the time—retires suddenly, or is on sick leave and we're not been made aware in advance, it has an impact immediately. By the way, even if a court clerk of the board is not there, it has an impact. More so, it's the case with economists and lawyers. I must say that in addition to the question of retention is the question of staffing. For some people it is not very appealing to work in such a small environment because they don't see any potential for higher levels, and so on, and they prefer to be in a bigger environment. Some also feel that the board is ultraspecialized, which it is, and they find what we do “a bit obscure”, as they say.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Well, no, I have visions of a few desks in the basement of the archives, working from old steel desks with wooden chairs. But, I mean, it's a serious issue, though, about retention and attraction, especially given how short you are in terms of your resources.
With regard to those, because it requires particular attention, have you indicated or made submissions about this to the Department of Finance and the Treasury Board? Has that been part of at least an identification? Outside of the committee work that was done before, which clearly made it as light as day, has that been part of the process?
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
No. No, we did not. In all fairness to Minister Dion, he didn't say, yes, provide immediately additional resources to the board; he said that a study should be done immediately to look at the financial situation of the board.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
For sure, it was an identifiable thing. Sometimes we spend time on studies when we could put those resources toward solving the obvious problem.
3:55 p.m.
Vice-Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Copyright Board of Canada
I agree with you.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
The problem is not only hemorrhaging on our own part as we try to have an organization that runs professionally and is dealing with complex law, but also in our relationships with the private sector and artists and others, and how we look and are seen internationally as well. Very public delays are taking place on a number of different cases, and I haven't heard any begrudging of that, aside from the fact that basically everyone says you're understaffed.
