Industry Committee on Feb. 18th, 2016

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, but again we do so without securing the minister's spot. We go through that and then we have to fight again for the minister's spot because we haven't invited the minister. We delay everything that we're going to do, including other business.

If we want to have these departments come, why just innovation? I mean, there are other things. We have so many different.... Are we going to have the Canadian Tourism Commission come here to talk about innovation? I want to hear about other things that they have in their mandate, so I'd just leave it blank and do that.

Again, the practice has been to try to get the minister as soon as possible. It's actually healthy for the minister. Then, you backfill with some of that stuff that you have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately, that was voted down. The motion we have in front of us right now is....

Clearly from this side of the table, their approach is bottom-up. I'm trying to include everybody on this, but at the end of the day it's different philosophies and bottom-up is where this group wants to go.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I have an amendment.

Let's strike out “innovation” then, if we're going to do that, because I want a free chance. It's not that I won't be asking questions about innovation or whatever, but I don't want them coming here just prepared for innovation. I want them coming here prepared for the department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Okay.

Mr. Nuttall.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

I have a few things here. First of all, I hope we can get to a vote by 5:30.

Secondly, I'm looking at this, and you know, we can invite all of these organizations here—and we should put them all in line to come—and we should invite the ministers to come as well. The way I see it right now is that what's being practised is a block by the Liberal members of Parliament on this committee—let's call a spade a spade—from getting the ministers to come to this committee. You can say it's because you want a bottom-up approach, or you can put any lipstick on it that you want, but at the end of the day, this is interpreted as, “We don't want the minister to come here and face any questions from the industry committee.” I'm concerned about that.

Look at the different organizations that are being invited. Does anyone here honestly believe that under the mandate being given to them by the government we're going to hear different from what the government has asked them to do? What we're going to hear from these organizations is “these are our marching orders”. There may be things left outside of that which they want to communicate to us, which is a good thing; however, they're going to communicate their marching orders.

You're from business. That's what happens, right? You give the order. You're the CEO or the whatever and you give the order. You tell them what to do and they go out and they implement. That's what the agencies are meant to do, to be implementing the vision. If we think that for some reason they're going to come here and go outside of that, it's a dream. It's just not going to happen. They would face consequences for that.

As we're looking forward here, guys, I think we need to come to some sort of agreement. I don't think that what my colleague has put forward in inviting a minister to come to a committee where he's to be held accountable by the people of Canada is a bad thing. That is a good thing. That is a practice of democracy. I will stand up for that seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

You cannot.... Actually, that's a good question. I'm glad you brought that up, motions for the previous question.

[An hon. member]

Point of order—

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

The motion “That this question be now put” is known as the previous question. In the House, the previous question is a debatable motion. When the debate ends, the motion for the previous question is put to a vote. If the motion is carried, the initial motion under consideration is immediately put to a vote. In committee, motions for the previous question are inadmissible.

So I actually have the floor as long as I need it.

We should discuss how we can get both the agencies and the ministers to come to this committee, because that's the business of this committee. That's why we are elected and what we've been put here by our parties to do, the business of this committee.

I will stand up for it for the next 27 minutes. We can keep talking. I know you have a lot of time, and so do we. Let's make sure we're doing our job, guys.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Perfect. Let's talk about some other things, then.

Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I really like the approach we're taking in terms of educating ourselves from the departments. I don't think that precludes us inviting the ministers in once we have a sense of what's going on, what's working, and what isn't working. I think that having the parliamentary secretaries here to also hear those conversations will help the whole process so that we aren't out of touch with the ministries.

But I think it's very, very important to hear from the front-line people. The approach that Mr. Baylis took I thought followed best business practices, and that's to get your information as close to the source as you can and then work on it as a management team, which would definitely include the ministers.

They're really two different business approaches. It's not to say that we won't talk to ministers, because we obviously need to have ministers' input to the committee. We also need the input of significant businesses and also need to go out in the field to talk to businesses. I think we need to be really engaged as close to the front line as we can, so that as situations change in the economy....

All of us are here to try to grow the Canadian economy and to help with export development. We have the four points that you've rightly put on the table, and I think that if we had those on the wall....That is what our focus is. It isn't partisan politics here. We're not trying to block each other. We're trying to find an approach where we can educate ourselves so that we can do the best job we can for our constituents, regardless of what part of the country we come from or what political party we come from.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you.

Mr. Baylis, and then Mr. Nuttall.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In his opening, Mr. Nuttall stated his ideas of things we should look at before the idea of speaking to the ministers. One point he brought up was that BDC is in direct competition with private banks.

Now, as a person who has taken loans from both private banks and from BDC, I can tell you—I've done a lot of work with them—that the BDC charges generally two to three percentage points higher than a private bank. They only step in when you cannot get a loan from a private bank. I don't see how this is competition. If I could get a loan from an existing bank, I wouldn't go to get a loan that was 2% or 3% higher. It's not part of their mandate. They don't compete, unless you think....

This is just my personal business experience, but I tend to get a loan with the lowest interest rate, if I can. So I don't see that it's competition.

The fact that you made the statement further confirms to me the need for us to be educated. I do not think it's the minister's job to come here and tell us how the BDC works. As my colleague Mr. Longfield says, I think we should speak to the BDC about how they work. If you don't believe them, you can question them and you can read more about them, but to bring the minister here to ask him to tell us how they work doesn't make any sense to me.

I think we should do our homework. This is what we should debate. I think we've already made a vote on the last question, and if we're not going to waste our time and if we're going to move forward, let's move on the new motion I've put forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Mr. Nuttall.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

That's the way it works. It's democracy, right? You have a majority. You're going to win the votes when you need to. But we still have to listen to each other speak, just like I listened to Mr. Baylis.

There are a couple of things. First of all, if I were a betting man—and I'm not—I would make a bet that when BDC finally comes in here, they will give you examples of where they're in direct competition with private sector banks.

I know that: I just can't give you a personal example. That would be breaking my client privilege that I have to respect under the Privacy Act from when I was in finance, so I won't. However, I can give you sectors that they're involved in, which are ridiculous, such as the hospitality and hotel sector in urban centres. You sit there and you go, “How is that spurring economic development?” They're traded—

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Well, because the banks are already funding these things.

We will find these things out when they come here. I can't wait for them to come here and do that. We need to invite them to come here and answer those questions.

Those are not the questions I will be asking the minister when he comes here. When the minister comes here, we'll be asking about a very broad approach. To think that the minister would somehow.... As you've said, that I would be asking him questions on a specific issue like that would not be rational.

We will be asking him, what is your broad approach? What vision do you see? There are areas of this country where we were split, in southern Ontario with FedDev, in northern Ontario. We have western diversification. We have northern. We have maritime. We have Quebec. What are the opportunities for the Government of Canada to have a very positive effect in those marketplaces? How are you seeing those tools being used, moving forward?

Those are the types of questions we really do need to ask the minister when he comes.

Another one would be if we had in some of the other ministers. I can think of tourism. Maybe there is an opportunity for BDC to be in that industry, and tourism is something we can have them involved with. We should be asking those same questions there as well.

At the end of the day, having the ministers come here and be accountable to this committee is a good thing.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

You didn't put a motion asking for the ministers. You put a motion to ask for one minister.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

For one minister; you're absolutely right.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

And you've decided already that tourism—

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I had the floor.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's not in order, asking back and forth.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Absolutely.

Why would we move to have multiple other ministers come when we couldn't have the minister who's really in control of most of the portfolio here? At the end of the day, what should be done is that at the same time that we move forward with the agencies coming in, we should be inviting the ministers as well.

Why on earth would a committee not want the ministers to come to it? Even if you were to say, “We want the ministers to come, but after the agencies”, why wouldn't we start with the invitation now? It just makes sense.

The only thing I can think of is that you don't want the ministers here to be held accountable. That makes no sense to me. We were elected to do a job. Let's do it, guys. Let's invite them to come here. Let's have them come and be held accountable.

Yes, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

If I can interject, the motion that we're discussing right now is inviting the department heads.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Absolutely.