Industry Committee on June 5th, 2020

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

The other question that I have has to do with the lack of standardization with interprovincial trucking rules. I hear this quite often. What are some of the biggest challenges that Robert has had with this in transporting goods between provinces?

[Jean-Robert Lessard]

Between provinces we didn't have too many problems. At the beginning, many truck stops were halted and our drivers were not in a position to have a shower or get food—things like that. With the pressure of the Quebec association and the Canadian Trucking Association, we had, I would say, good communication with these people, and finally within about two weeks things were in place.

For transportation going state-side, it was another big item. Most of the places were closed and we had problems for our drivers. Where we had terminals, we had to put in place showers and food supplies for the drivers just to make sure they could continue to do their work. It was, I would say, a tough process, but we took charge.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Good. Thank you for that.

When I look at what's called the government's “regulatory reconciliation and cooperation table”—and this has to do with interprovincial trade, specifically—I've noticed some of the changes being targeted to be resolved actually this year in the transport industry. These include standardization for regulations on electronic logging devices, size and weight restrictions, as well as commercial truck driver certifications. Would getting some of these regulations standardized have a meaningful impact for your company or for getting goods across the country?

[Jean-Robert Lessard]

It's very important because we could compete at the same level. With different rules in different provinces, sometimes it was difficult to establish our costing. It took a little while to get the electronic control in place. Now with the hours of work, the driving, the control in place, it means we can compete at the same level. Some others were using regular log books, and they had three log books on board. Now with the electronic...it is quite difficult.

It's also good for the safety aspect of transportation because it's all in our systems. These factors control the number of hours of driving and put the drivers to rest if they need to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lessard.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Ehsassi. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much to all of the witnesses who have appeared before this committee.

I should, in turn, apologize because I was experiencing technical glitches. There are many aspects of the testimony I missed. I am eternally grateful for all the guidance you have each provided.

For my first question, if I may, I would like to follow up on what Madam Rempel Garner said. My question is for the chemical industry.

She rightly stated that you can't just push against regs. The reality is that there are many shortcomings in how things currently stand. As I understand it, the witness for the chemical industry has rightly pointed out, much as my colleague MP Longfield has stated, that it's all about innovation. It's about making sure we're responsive and we're moving forward.

However, the question and the challenge remain. How are we going to ensure that plastic isn't dumped all around the world? This is a problem that many Canadians were concerned about. Again, I appreciate full well that the representative from the chemical industry has said that there has to be advanced recycling [Technical difficulty—Editor] chemicals for quite some time.

If I could ask you one more time—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Mr. Ehsassi, I'm sorry to disturb you. I just wanted to pause you for a moment because we're having a lot of trouble hearing you. You keep cutting out.

Would you repeat the question, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Perhaps I could ask the representative from the chemical industry this question. In the absence of all this innovation, and recognizing the fact that these are time-consuming things, how can we deal with the problems such as ensuring that Canadian chemicals and plastics aren't dumped around the world?

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

You're absolutely right. It's not just one piece. Innovation is an important piece; collections, sorting, advanced recycling techniques are another piece. We support extended producer responsibility as well, which is really having the producers commit to taking back their products.

We also support regulation. We think it's an important part of it. It's how you regulate that we're very concerned about. We believe it's really important for the government to fulfill its commitments and to ensure that these plastics do stay out of the environment and that they are properly managed. We understand that a discussion paper will be distributed in the fall. It will have ideas about prohibitions, but about management and exemptions as well.

We're fully supportive of the need to manage this issue and the need to manage plastic pollution. Wherever we can, we think there's an opportunity there, particularly when a CEPA review is about to take place. There's an opportunity there to take a look at the legislation and see how we can beef it up or amend it so that it can directly address the issue of plastics in the environment.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that.

I understand you're saying that your concern is that the use of the word “toxic” in the regulations will essentially, according to you, have a chilling effect to come to any conclusive results on that issue.

Do you have any estimates? Have you had an opportunity to do any studies that would demonstrate this would be the case?

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

As I noted, we have a $4-billion project that has not yet broken ground in Alberta, and that could be impacted. We also have a couple of members who are interested in and have been actively pursuing an opportunity in Canada, to the tune of $10 billion. However, designating plastics as toxic would certainly send that chill in investment, and they have other opportunities.

The other concern for us, in terms of our partnership with the United States and Mexico as part of the USMCA, is that there are certain elements there that would require risk assessment if the products were to be declared toxic.

In terms of our regulatory co-operation, we need to ensure that whatever is put in place is something that allows the free flow of goods between Canada and the U.S., given that our products cross the border several times before they're actually completed.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

So far we have no proof that the use of the word “toxic” will stand in the way of that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

MP Ehsassi, apologies. Your time is up.

We will now start the next round of questions.

Mrs. Vignola, you may go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Lessard.

Earlier, Mr. Lessard, you mentioned the problems truckers encountered in the first few weeks.

I heard about those issues. I have family and friends who work in the sector, and they told me that they didn't have access to washroom facilities, whether in Quebec, Ontario, other provinces or across the border. When they would cross the U.S. border, any food they brought was confiscated and thrown away. They were seen almost as pariahs, so they ran into problems at loading and unloading sites.

Which of the measures put in place did the most to ensure truckers felt respected and less stressed?

[Jean-Robert Lessard]

As you mentioned, it was an intense experience for our people, not necessarily between Quebec and Ontario—although that is a very busy corridor for us—but more in the U.S. It's true that, when they arrived at the drop-off or delivery point, they were often treated like pariahs.

In some cases, consignees didn't want to sign documents confirming receipt of the goods. Since everyone has a cell phone, we set up a procedure where truckers would take a photo of the document and a photo of the person receiving the goods. That way, we were able to make sure we would be paid.

Obviously, truckers had lunch boxes with them, and there were a few times when they weren't allowed in with their food. What was insulting was that truckers had paid people to prepare food for them, but when they got to the border, it was thrown out.

That put tremendous strain on truckers, but things got better when the people at the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Association du camionnage du Québec got involved. They lobbied hard and were able to convince border authorities that, at a minimum, drivers were entitled to eat and to use the facilities.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Can you tell us briefly whether you and your truckers incurred significant financial losses because of the things you just told us, in particular, the challenges around getting people's signatures and the fact that food was being thrown out?

[Jean-Robert Lessard]

No, we didn't incur any financial losses because we were very proactive; we called customers and told them that it was ridiculous. An electronic procedure was then put in place.

I must admit, though, that not everyone is well set up to do business electronically, so they may have lost money because of that.

On our end, we didn't lose any money. If they paid us, we would go back to deliver the goods, but if not, we wouldn't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lessard.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Masse.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To Hoffmann-La Roche, with regard to health and privacy issues, we heard from the Privacy Commissioner of his concerns about his capabilities. Right now he has to go for legal challenges; he can't impose administrative monetary penalties and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts with regard to that parameter.

Canadians are concerned about a number of different things. One of them is their privacy, and health data is an issue. Could you maybe elaborate on what you've presented and also the Privacy Commissioner's expressions at this committee?

[Fanny Sie]

Absolutely.

I think privacy is always a very sensitive topic, and we're more careful because we know the risks relate to consequences that he can't necessarily take back. It also sets precedent for the future.

When we look at what we've done, the world has moved very conservatively and has either moved forward just a little bit or not moved at all. Because of that, we haven't been able to really see the benefits of data.

Given the particular urgency of this, we've talked to a number of patient groups. We've said, “We want to be able to empower you to contribute to science. We want to be fully transparent with you and say this is the particular dataset we need, and if we can have that under your full consent, it will go to this particular study and will be used to create these particular tools.”

There is huge traction with patient foundations and our patient advocates that this is what they want. They want to be able to contribute. Their data matters. They are valued in the system, and they want to be able to do this for science and for Canada.

I think it's important—we talk about this a lot—that are working with the ecosystem, being across the table with all stakeholders and co-developing with each another. If we do that, then we can ensure that everything we do is within proper guidelines.

We speak to our privacy experts and the appropriate authorities, but there is traction for grassroots contributions and challenge definitions. It's not insurmountable is what I am saying.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

I know I'm out of time, Madam Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

That wraps up our third round. We have a few minutes remaining, so I will move to MP Dreeshen.

You have the floor for the remaining time.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to go back to Madame Des Chênes.

We were talking earlier about the conversion of propane to polypropylene. You mentioned that when that particular product, polypropylene, is exported, there is no tax associated with that because of export issues and so on.

When that polypropylene is being used here in Canada, is there a carbon tax on it?

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

Not yet, because we aren't producing polypropylene in Canada just yet.

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

Yes.

Inter Pipeline broke ground last year and is developing a polypropylene capacity. They'll be using propane, so natural gas, in order to move that forward.

What's really interesting about their facility is that they've been doing greenhouse gas emissions intensity tests, and it will be 65% below global average for greenhouse gas intensity.