Industry Committee on June 5th, 2020

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to pick up on a line of questions started by my colleague, Mr. Erskine-Smith. I am interested in the concept of unnecessary versus necessary plastics. I think that's a good way of framing this debate during the pandemic. Prior to the pandemic, there was a lot of discussion about how we don't need single-use straws and single-use plastic bags because they're unnecessary. In the context of human health and environmental health, a calculation was made that was detrimental to our use of these products. Then when the pandemic hit, we had opposite advice from public health officials, who were basically saying not to bring your reusable plastic bags to the grocery store but instead use single-use plastics because of the potential impact on human health.

Ms. Des Chênes, I'm just wondering if you can speak to the industry's perspective on this. If you're arguing that the approach is not to list plastics as a toxic substance under schedule 1 of CEPA, then how can we deal with that trade-off? We know that plastics are ubiquitous. We know they're used in everything in everyday life, but how do we, as legislators, mitigate that trade-off that we're always talking about, so that the fears of the people who are concerned about the floating plastic garbage icebergs off of the coast of Indonesia are dealt with.

I'm also concerned about microbeads in our Great Lakes. I don't want those in my digestive tract.

How do we square that circle? How is the industry association going to lead on that issue so that regs aren't just happening to it, but that you are an active partner in this discussion?

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

It's a great question. You're right: Prior to the pandemic there was that call for unnecessary plastics. What we've found is that in certain circumstances plastics can perform better than other materials. I think our approach is that if you are seeking alternatives, then look at them from a life-cycle basis. You don't want to pick an alternative that will have more impacts on the environment down the road. You really need to take a life-cycle approach to that. To an earlier point around science, it's really important for that.

What we're looking at and what we've been advocating for with the provinces and with the federal government is really not too far out of line with the CCME action plan on zero plastic waste. It's really putting the pieces in place that will allow the implementation of extended producer responsibility. That means that they're responsible for the plastics they put on the market and pay the cost of collecting them back. We see this work very well in British Columbia: Compared with much lower numbers across the country, 70% of their plastics are recovered . Ontario is starting a blue box modernization program that will see it move to extended producer responsibility.

We also look at investment supports around advanced recycling that allows for chemical recycling. This will allow us to take those hard-to-recycle products, like razors, stir sticks and cutlery, and really transform them, bringing them back down to their molecular level, and then they can be used to create a whole new set of products.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

One of the things that I think has been more of a municipal issue in many jurisdictions in Canada is that a lot of recycled plastics can't be used as feedstock for different products. We hear about plastics being collected and then shipped overseas and being put in garbage dumps in other countries. How is the industry working to ensure that if recycling is going to be the option, that it is actually used in feedstock in a broader scenario?

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

Well, recycling is one option. Mechanical recycling, advanced chemical recycling—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Look, people often tell me that we don't need plastic straws, but your industry association would say that we do need plastic straws. People will say that we can't recycle these straws or that recycling doesn't get into the industry, right? How does the industry deal with this, rather than just pushing against regs? Is it by saying it needs be part of the solution here in using it as feedstock?

Sorry, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Very quickly, I'll let you answer that.

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

Okay. We're working with key partners to try to build markets that allow us to use those recycled products in roofing tiles, in outdoor furniture, in a number of applications that will allow us to actually.... If you build the market, then it's easier to collect the content. You can set the recycled content standards, and we can adhere to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Our next questioner is MP Longfield.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm just going to continue briefly with Ms. Des Chênes because this is a very good conversation and discussion that we're having.

Particularly interesting to me, when you're mentioning the life cycle and circular economy, is something that my community is quite involved with, the circular food economy. How do we get the most life out of a molecule once it's been processed. I know polypropylene is harder to deal with than other materials. We do have capital cost allowances, high capital cost reductions and accelerated allowances for machinery and equipment that helps with the environment.

What role has any of that played in the responsible care program that CIAC is working on, in looking for solutions to keep things out of landfills?

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

Our members are a very innovative lot. They're scientists and chemists. It's really important to them to help deliver solutions. A lot of the things they're working on right now are product designs. How can you redesign products for recyclability? How can you design them in a way that uses less of those products?

We also have members that are advanced recyclers, companies like Pyrowave, GreenMantra and Polystyvert. They take those products that don't necessarily need to be cleaned and provide a different stream from your traditional recycling blue box stream.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Hematite in Guelph is another company that's taking some scrap from Magna operations and turning it into plastic for speaker boxes. They're sharing technology. They're actually even sharing moulds, so that one company's waste becomes the input for another company.

As we set up the CEPA schedule 1and the other regulations to really put the pressure on innovation, that's really where we need to head, and I appreciate that the definition of toxicity is something that has to be looked at. It's really a definition that's within regulations, versus the ECCC work. I think we are more or less heading in the same direction to try to keep this expensive product out of landfills as it's terrible for the environment.

[Isabelle Des Chênes]

Well, that's just it. Thank you.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mrs. Sie, I'd like to switch over to data. I love data. It's just one of those things, right? You love it or you hate it, but when you look at the data science coalition.... I'm looking at manufacturing plants and large numbers of employees going into certain situations, maybe even office towers—people going into office towers—and how we aggregate data to do proper contact tracing.

How are we working with manufacturers and supply chains to more adequately share the information? You mentioned some gaps and fragmentation. Is there a solution that you're working on with government and industry?

[Fanny Sie]

Yes. I would say that the data science coalition is actually a unique view into the future. We decided to go 10 years into the future because all of a sudden, all of these multi-industry organizations, whether they were start-ups or multinationals, decided that we're all one company. We're all going to make sure that we're mission-focussed and mandate-focussed. We're going to get rid of the pandemic.

We started to share resources. We started to share data, and then all of sudden, there was an expediting of digital solutions that could be used for the pandemic, and we're using our channels to try to mobilize that information as fast as possible. It started with a critical mass, but I see it expanding outside of the typical players.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

The Mozilla Corporation has a saying that you work openly and you share data, you share information and you get better solutions.

How does this fit within an IP structure, which is contrary to that?

[Fanny Sie]

When we think about open data, the benefit of looking at open data is to see the actual benefits of data so you can prove that it actually works. Then there's that decision: What do we compete on and what do we not compete on? I think in the future there's going to be this industry coalition or decision or table where we say, okay, no one's getting into the market right now, so let's decide that we're not going to compete in this are. But then we'll compete in this area, and I see that working.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

And in the meantime, saving lives.... Why not?

[Fanny Sie]

Absolutely.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

With data—go figure.

[Fanny Sie]

But, you know, that would work out.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

My card is coming up, but thank you.

[Fanny Sie]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

You know me well, MP Longfield.

The next round of questions goes to MP Gray.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a few questions for Groupe Robert Inc.

A few weeks ago we heard from the Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition at this committee. One concern they raised was about potential shortages in shipper containers. I know you mentioned in your opening remarks that so far things have been managed from your side reasonably well, and you've been tracking everything. But they were talking about a concern of theirs that they saw coming down the line. Is that a concern of yours as well? Do you see that in your company and within your industry there?

[Jean-Robert Lessard]

At the beginning of COVID, we had, I would say, worries about it. We were working very closely with the Port of Montreal, and because I am on the board of CargoM, we as a group looked at all the transportation and logistics. We made a sondage to know exactly how much space was available for empty containers to make sure there would be a good inventory. We talked to the customers also...to deliver the full containers in order to give us some empty containers. In fact, the group of transportation companies working with the Port of Montreal were all successful and we managed to get through that problem within about two weeks. It was, I would say, a good realization, and it relieved pressure on the companies like us, and also on the customers, because they were worried. Some of them were still exporting, and to export you needed the empty box. It went very well.