Industry Committee on March 10th, 2020

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Just so I'm clear on how it will actually work, you said in your remarks, “This new framework will enable Canadians to know, before they answer the phone, whether a call is legitimate or whether it should be treated with suspicion.”

How will they know? What will appear on the call display?

[Ian Scott]

That's one of the things that's still being worked out. There are a number of possibilities that you can imagine. It could be a check mark. It could be a check mark accompanied by an audible sound. Think of a green light and a yellow light. The green light would mean it's authenticated. The yellow light would indicate that you should approach the call with care. Or a red light that says—

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

How about “do not answer”?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ian Scott]

Hopefully, we would have screened out something that was clearly fraudulent, and the carriers will, but we also have to take into account accessibility issues. We have to deal with sight-impaired and hearing-impaired individuals.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Also, we know that in 2015 the CRTC initiated proceedings on this whole topic and some stakeholders—we have this from our library researchers—argued that telecom companies should have the responsibility to manage nuisance calls since they have the greatest insight and technical ability to do so.

Since then, from the perspective of our household, certainly things have increased dramatically. Could you explain how the telecoms have been involved?

[Ian Scott]

Look, this is a co-operation. We are setting expectations. The carriers are trying to deliver on them. We both have the same objective. It is not in the interest of service providers to have their customers annoyed at the calls, and it's certainly not in our interest. We're trying to protect the public interest. We are working together, and it is co-operative, not combative.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.

Mr. Lemire, you may go ahead.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To start, I just want to point out that one of the benefits of being a francophone in this country is that, when you get a fraudulent call and you don't recognize the number, your initial reaction is to hang up when the person on the other end of the line talks to you in English. That doesn't mean it's not a problem. I imagine there are statistics.

[Ian Scott]

That's not a solution, in our eyes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I agree, but I just wanted to throw out the observation.

I want to thank Mr. Masse for raising the issue. It's a serious concern for seniors, and it's absolutely shameful. I am glad credible organizations like yours are tackling the matter.

My questions are for the RCMP officials. In your presentation, you didn't talk about the use of IP technology by fraudsters. Do we understand how it works? What are their tactics? Do they use the technology, and if so, how can we combat it?

[A/Commr Eric Slinn]

I'm maybe going to put it over to my colleague, Guy Paul, who lives that every day. He can provide that.

[Guy Paul Larocque, Acting Inspector, Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Of course, as was mentioned earlier by Assistant Commissioner Slinn in his elocution, scammers or fraudsters are always using opportunities to achieve their means. That's one thing they will do, and not just in using regular phone technologies, but also in abusing the IP technologies to commit their fraud and hide behind the technologies to actually avoid being detected. They like to create layers. They'll use technology to that effect.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Is there anything tangible we can do up front to combat the way scammers operate? Are Canada's systems sophisticated enough to detect their use of IP technology?

[Guy Paul Larocque]

That's more of a technical question, so I can't say a whole lot about getting ahead of the technology on that level. We do, however, know that one of the best ways to fight fraud is to keep people informed of the latest tactics in use to prevent more people from falling victim to scammers. The more aware people are and the more able they are to recognize scams, the better equipped they will be to deal with the threat.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I completely agree, and I want to highlight your efforts on that front.

My next questions are for the CRTC officials.

The CRTC's procedures apply in large part to big providers, but small providers in the regions can't necessarily afford to put in place the technology needed to create an effective firewall. That concerns me.

Do you consult small providers? Do you reach out to them for their expertise and knowledge? What part do they play in the fight against scams?

[Ian Scott]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lemire.

I'm going to let Mr. Garneau answer that.

[Alain Garneau]

All telephone and voice messaging service providers are invited to take part in the process. Whenever we put out a notice of consultation, they are informed.

The costs associated with upgrading the network can definitely be a challenge. However, should the industry have the resources to bring small providers together, or will some providers depend on a large provider on the back end? It shouldn't necessarily be a barrier if the company is small. There are benefits in moving from time division multiplexing to the IP network. It's possible to save money by doing so.

I'd like to answer your question about the technology and the approach, if I may. Telephony over IP relies on broadband Internet. It's easy for a teenager sitting in a basement somewhere in India to connect to the Internet, obtain a dialling device online and use it to make millions of phone calls.

The return on investment is so appealing that, even if they reach only one per cent of their target, getting one person to fall for the scam is extremely advantageous.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That's what worries me about IP technology.

Mr. Scott, you also mentioned in your presentation that you wanted more flexibility to better respond. What type of flexibility are you looking for? Is it something we, as parliamentarians, need to provide?

[Ian Scott]

It may be necessary to allow for the pooling and sharing of information that federal agencies have.

[Alain Garneau]

I'd like to add something, if I may.

Mr. Scott mentioned at the beginning that having an explicit information-sharing provision in the legislation would be beneficial. As parliamentarians, you would need to give the CRTC specific direction.

If we had the freedom we needed to share information with other law enforcement agencies, or government bodies, it would be a good thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you.

The next round of questions is from MP Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the committee and to our guests.

I'd like to raise the next point with regard to enabling legislation. Can it be done through regulation to allow the CRTC to share with more agencies like the Competition Bureau and others?

[Ian Scott]

Thank you. We need to be more crisp in our responses.

No, it needs to be done through legislation.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay.